Ryan Nugent-Hopkins has been playing with a shoulder injury

[bax]

I know it's fun to dump on the Oilers, but anyone who is saying that RNH was rushed into the NHL is wrong. He dominated the WHL as a 17/18 year old and then put up 52 points in 62 games in the NHL as an 18/19 year old. Not to mention the only times he looked out of place was in the face off circle. He had nothing left to prove in junior. I guess this shoulder injury can explain his sophomore slump this year, but lots of young NHL players go through this. I remember him actually standing up Brendan Morrow last year, and thats not even his game. He is elusive and shifty like Gaudreau. The kid is also 6'0 175 pounds. He was not rushed into the NHL.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Agreed. RNH was clearly NHL ready. Wouldn't have helped his development to go back to junior.

You can argue he hasn't spent enough time on nutrition and gaining strength but that is a separate issue from him being NHL ready and needing to develop at the pro level. You don't stunt his development to hope he gains weight playing in the WHL because he wouldn't have gained any more weight there than in the NHL and had a pretty good chance of getting injured at that level as well.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by bax

I know it's fun to dump on the Oilers, but anyone who is saying that RNH was rushed into the NHL is wrong. He dominated the WHL as a 17/18 year old and then put up 52 points in 62 games in the NHL as an 18/19 year old. Not to mention the only times he looked out of place was in the face off circle. He had nothing left to prove in junior. I guess this shoulder injury can explain his sophomore slump this year, but lots of young NHL players go through this. I remember him actually standing up Brendan Morrow last year, and thats not even his game. He is elusive and shifty like Gaudreau. The kid is also 6'0 175 pounds. He was not rushed into the NHL.

I hate this argument. "He had nothing left to prove."

So what? You can still develop and learn and progress in Junior. Sure, maybe not as quickly, etc, but whats the alternative?

Progress slowly, put on some weight/muscle or get your ass handed to you and suffer from injury after injury.

Who says he needed to prove anything to people in Junior? Maybe he just needed a bit more time.

Maybe it wouldnt have helped his development, but it wouldnt have hindered either and allowed him to be more physically ready for the NHL.

[moon]

Originally Posted by bax

I know it's fun to dump on the Oilers, but anyone who is saying that RNH was rushed into the NHL is wrong. He dominated the WHL as a 17/18 year old and then put up 52 points in 62 games in the NHL as an 18/19 year old. Not to mention the only times he looked out of place was in the face off circle. He had nothing left to prove in junior. I guess this shoulder injury can explain his sophomore slump this year, but lots of young NHL players go through this. I remember him actually standing up Brendan Morrow last year, and thats not even his game. He is elusive and shifty like Gaudreau. The kid is also 6'0 175 pounds. He was not rushed into the NHL.

RNH was a tough case because as you said he was clearly a step above the WHL but even with his good stats he always looked too weak to play in the NHL. I think he is a guy that could have benefitted with time in the AHL to get used to playing against the bigger guys and working with NHL strength coach to help build up strength.

I think the NHL should look at working with CHL to allow for guys, whether top 5/10/first round, to go to AHL early. I understand that the CHL doesn't want to lose top talent but there does seem to be a group of players that would benefit from going to AHL rather than the NHL or CHL only option.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Yeah. Two weeks vacation is pretty ridiculous for anyone with experience especially someone leaving her kids back in Europe. If you're going to go to lengths to recruit all star scientists to EDM and it's crap weather i dont think the wife asking for 11 days unpaid vacation should be a deal breaker for the University. I've asked for the same from a salaried job and was granted it and i didnt even have kids back in Europe. And then the guy offers to run the program on the cheap from England and the University isn't interested.

Sounds like a real petty squabble from the University's end. Doesn't surprise me as big administrations often are uncompromising even on matters that shouldn't be huge deals.

I see your point, but they did the guy a solid by hiring his wife into a good administrator's job. They didn't have to do that. I know some universities that have a no spouse or family hiring policy just so these kind of conflicts are prevented. Seems they went the extra mile for the guy. I understand your point of being able to negotiate extended benefits, but that is up to the employer and many times restricted by job classification. As the talent, you might be able to negotiate extended benefits. As the overhead, it's unlikely. I also can understand how the school would think that it would be problematic for this guy to run his program and team from 7 times zones away. University research groups and administration have a hard enough time functioning in the same room let alone on different continents. I guess anything is possible, but I think that wouldn't work and would cause more problems for the program and university than it was worth.

Bah, doesn't really matter. I don't think you can hang this on Edmonton or be used as an example to run the Oilers down. Trust me, I love to run Edmonton and the Oilers down, but this isn't an example to use. There are better targets just in Rexall Place!

[theg69]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

Honestly if you're a doctor or any world class expert in sports medicine are you choosing Edmonton as your home?

It wouldn't surprise me if they had access to the 30th ranked everything in the NHL.

Now that is an extremely ignorant comment. Doctors and any other profession choose their home for a variety of reasons. Although I am a fan of the Flames and not of the Oilers given I grew up in Calgary, I still live in Edmonton, mostly because their medical facilities and training programs are still better than those in Calgary.

http://oncampus.macleans.ca/educatio...ical-doctoral/

The U of A medical school is always ranked above the University of Calgary and quite specifically their Sports Medicine is one of the best residency training programs in Canada. They also have some of the best orthopedic surgeons in the country here as well.

Half my medical school class was from Calgary as well, and my sister CHOSE to go to Edmonton over Calgary (even though she got into both medical schools).

To make a baseless comment like that is garbage and quite frankly offensive. Even in the case of Ryan Nugent Hopkins, we obviously do not know the full story here and although I like to laugh at the Oilers like any other Flames fan, to drag their doctors through the mud is absolutely abhorable. And yes, I do know some of the doctors who work with the Oilers and the Eskimos.

I do agree that although RNH is quite skilled, he is still too weak and undersized to be an impact player yet in the NHL and until he gains more strength, he will likely be injury prone.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Agreed. RNH was clearly NHL ready. Wouldn't have helped his development to go back to junior.

You can argue he hasn't spent enough time on nutrition and gaining strength but that is a separate issue from him being NHL ready and needing to develop at the pro level. You don't stunt his development to hope he gains weight playing in the WHL because he wouldn't have gained any more weight there than in the NHL and had a pretty good chance of getting injured at that level as well.

What's worse? Stunting a year of developement or stunting his career? A smaller guy like Martin St. Louis has bigger legs than width of RNH's shoulders. It's no wonder he has to go under the knife.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Agreed. RNH was clearly NHL ready. Wouldn't have helped his development to go back to junior.

You can argue he hasn't spent enough time on nutrition and gaining strength but that is a separate issue from him being NHL ready and needing to develop at the pro level. You don't stunt his development to hope he gains weight playing in the WHL because he wouldn't have gained any more weight there than in the NHL and had a pretty good chance of getting injured at that level as well.

You can't possibly be STILL claiming he is NHL ready when he is quite clearly way to small to be able to withstand the physical toll of playing against NHL players.

Like you told me when I said he will suffer more setbacks because of his lack of size/strength, admit you were wrong and move on.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Locke

I hate this argument. "He had nothing left to prove."

So what? You can still develop and learn and progress in Junior. Sure, maybe not as quickly, etc, but whats the alternative?

Progress slowly, put on some weight/muscle or get your ass handed to you and suffer from injury after injury.

Who says he needed to prove anything to people in Junior? Maybe he just needed a bit more time.

Maybe it wouldnt have helped his development, but it wouldnt have hindered either and allowed him to be more physically ready for the NHL.

You discredit my argument that he has nothing left to prove in junior with the argument that he "gets his ass handed to him and suffers from injury after injury?"

His shoulder injury has nothing to do with his strength or size, it's been a nagging thing that he re-aggreviated. Any player in the NHL can get injured, this particular injury does absolutely nothing to strengthen the argument that RNH was rushed into the NHL. He was physically ready to play in the NHL except in his strength on face-offs, which I already mentioned. RNH would have made almost every team in the NHL the year after his draft, so it's no surprise that he made the Oilers, one of the worst teams in the league.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Azure

You can't possibly be STILL claiming he is NHL ready when he is quite clearly way to small to be able to withstand the physical toll of playing against NHL players.

Like you told me when I said he will suffer more setbacks because of his lack of size/strength, admit you were wrong and move on.

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. RNH is relatively the same size and weight of the following players:

David Krejci
Tyler Seguin
Jiri Hudler
T.J Brodie
Mike Riberio
Alex Goligoski

and many more. Our own Backlund has suffered a rash of injuries over the past few seasons, is it because he isn't physically ready for the NHL? No, any player can get injured.

[moon]

Originally Posted by bax

His shoulder injury has nothing to do with his strength or size, it's been a nagging thing that he re-aggreviated. Any player in the NHL can get injured, this particular injury does absolutely nothing to strengthen the argument that RNH was rushed into the NHL.

How does an injury that involves strength and size in terms of how it is caused and how a player is able to deal with it have nothing to do with strength and size.

If RNH is bigger and stronger he a. likely isn't as easy to hit or take the hit so hard and if his shoulder specifically is stronger it isn't likely to get as damaged by the hit.

Sure anyone can get injured but a guy who is undersized and weak is more likely to get this kind of injury than a bigger, stronger player.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Didn't Moreau and Grier both have chronic shoulder injuries as well for the Oilers? I don't think anybody would accuse those guys of being undersized for the NHL

[Azure]

Originally Posted by bax

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. RNH is relatively the same size and weight of the following players:

David Krejci
Tyler Seguin
Jiri Hudler
T.J Brodie
Mike Riberio
Alex Goligoski

and many more. Our own Backlund has suffered a rash of injuries over the past few seasons, is it because he isn't physically ready for the NHL? No, any player can get injured.

Size and weight don't really mean much. Its the build that counts.

He is extremely small. The picture makes that pretty obvious.

[bax]

Originally Posted by moon

How does an injury that involves strength and size in terms of how it is caused and how a player is able to deal with it have nothing to do with strength and size.

If RNH is bigger and stronger he a. likely isn't as easy to hit or take the hit so hard and if his shoulder specifically is stronger it isn't likely to get as damaged by the hit.

Sure anyone can get injured but a guy who is undersized and weak is more likely to get this kind of injury than a bigger, stronger player.

I agree that a bigger and stronger player is less prone to injury than a smaller player, but RNH isn't going to magically become a huge, power forward type center. He is good because he uses his IQ, skills, and elusiveness to make plays. He is more of a Pavel Datsyuk than a Joe Thornton. I just don't see how people can say he wasn't NHL ready with what he has already accomplished.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by moon

How does an injury that involves strength and size in terms of how it is caused and how a player is able to deal with it have nothing to do with strength and size.

If RNH is bigger and stronger he a. likely isn't as easy to hit or take the hit so hard and if his shoulder specifically is stronger it isn't likely to get as damaged by the hit.

Sure anyone can get injured but a guy who is undersized and weak is more likely to get this kind of injury than a bigger, stronger player.

It sure sounds logical. And yet it is hard to quantify and hard to prove. I'm not saying I disagree but shoulder injuries seem pretty random and seem to happen to some pretty strong guys.

And of course as I've pointed out a few times, there's no guarantee he doesn't suffer a chronic shoulder injury in the WHL, there's some strong defensemen in that league as well.

Bottom line to me is that his skill level was obviously NHL level and it was better for his development to play in the NHL. The fact he got injured doesn't change those factors. And no guarantee he doesn't suffer a chronic shoulder injury with another 10 lbs of muscle.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Didn't Moreau and Grier both have chronic shoulder injuries as well for the Oilers? I don't think anybody would accuse those guys of being undersized for the NHL

And Kovalchuk
Gaborik
Barkov
Sharp
Havlat
Ryan Murray
Colin Wlison
Meszaros
Heatley
Kesler

All guys who had shoulder injuries this year or last. These guys are mostly all big. Its one of the most common injuries in the game. I don't think size and strength has much to do with it. You get hit in the right spot, or crash awkwardly into the boards after tripping over the blueline, boom shoulder injury.

[bax]

Don't get me wrong here, I strongly dislike the Oilers and will always been happy to see them fail, I just disagree with those that say they mishandled RNH.

[Kaine]

Originally Posted by bax

Don't get me wrong here, I strongly dislike the Oilers and will always been happy to see them fail, I just disagree with those that say they mishandled RNH.

If he's been playing injured at his age with his size he has been mishandled. Plain and simple. It's not like the Oilers were pushing for a cup this year and needed all hands on deck, if RNH has been playing injured, well it is just outright stupid.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Kaine

If he's been playing injured at his age with his size he has been mishandled. Plain and simple. It's not like the Oilers were pushing for a cup this year and needed all hands on deck, if RNH has been playing injured, well it is just outright stupid.

Sorry, I should clarify. I mean mishandled as in they made the right decision to not send him back to junior after drafting him. As for letting him play injured? I agree with you.

[albertGQ]

I think RNH should've been sent back to Red Deer after being drafted

But I also thought the same for Jordan Staal. So what do I know