Quebec Riots start up again

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Devil's Advocate, as a guy who payed for his own post secondary education, mostly by working at a greenhouse and a lumber yard, and finished school with ZERO debt, I smugly tell you to cram it. You don't understand what "affordable" means. Because my experience demonstrates the epitome of affordability.

Ditto. I worked all kinds of jobs, tutored, did focus groups for cash etc. Anything to make it work.

[CaptainCrunch]

I manwhored to lonely fat chicks

[Devils'Advocate]

I too worked my way through university. I put in a lot of hours at minimum wage to work my way through. However, I can truely say that those that didn't have to work their way through and had mommy and daddy pay for it had an easier time of it. I didn't have near the time to study and many of my papers were rushed because I had time limitations. To those that worked their way through and came out with no debt, kudos to you. But do you honestly believe that it was as easy for you as it would have been if you had your education paid for by scholarship? And again, I'm not saying that life is supposed to be easy, I'm saying that it should be the government's role to ensure that life is MORE fair.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Devil's Advocate has a point if the cost of education escalates above inflation. In this case though that is not what's on the table. You can't have it both ways where we all live in harmony and everyone's union job pays them wage increases that exceed inflation and then have the government take care of natural inflation on tuition, thereby making tutition essentially free over the course of time.

What is this year's rate of inflation?

[Cowperson]

I'd say a high school education is a right.

I wouldn't say post-secondary education is a right. It's an option.

It is in the interests of society to provide post-secondary options to its younger people as an investment in future productivity and, some might say, an investment in its unique culture. We can agree on that. That conversation could mean a trade school or an arts college.

I've seen it said before that the mistake the government of Quebec made was getting into a conversation with students in the first place, which had the unfortunate encouraging effect of validating their concerns and setting up post-secondary education as some kind of right.

Other provinces have it correct. They support post-secondary facilities to the extent that Society feels is affordable and useful to the future. They don't get into a lot of meaningful conversations with students, of all people, about budget decisions.

Not everyone gets to go. That's a fact of life.

In my first year of college, I commuted 1.5 hours one way in the morning, then 1.5 hours back the other way at the end of the day, living in a fairly illegal boarding house with 12 other guys in Dover, the worst sub-neighbourhood in Forest Lawn, the worst neighbourhood in Calgary.

It was all I could afford. Might have been nice to have more help but I made do with what I could at the moment.

Suck it up Buttercups!!!

Cowperson

[peter12]

What is with these minimum wage jobs? Students can do far better than that. I worked so hard during my undergraduate to become competitive for internships, and fellowships. If I didn't get those, then I worked extremely hard at landscaping or labouring jobs.

What is fairness? I came out with an appreciation for hard work, especially that done by people who never wanted, or could get a university education. I also had no sense of entitlement, either from my parents or the government.

[afc wimbledon]

University is an almost wholly middle class institution so what these brats are actually marching for is less money for the poor and under priviledged and more money for the middle class, I pay my daughter 500 bucks a month, as does my ex, so she can go to college, its a pain in the arse but doable, essentially the cost of a car.

On top of that way to many people go to Uni, which means that the courses are dumbed down to accomadate the mediocre students and the actual advantage of a degree is amiliated. A degree is only worth something in the job market if it is reletively rare and difficult to get.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by jammies

Higher education should be free to the student. We should be aiming for 70-80% of the populace being university educated and another 10-20% having gone through trade schools. In the long run, education pays back society far more than it costs.

That percentage sounds kind of low for trades. I often joke with my friends, if a meteor ever struck the earth and we had to rebuild society, my fancy accounting degree and designation would mean I'll be lugging rock or digging ditches.

[polak]

Why does everyone try and make their "student life" stories so damn bleak.

It's already extremely easy to go to school. Everyone of my friends from High School were able to get into post-secondary (or trades school) and finish it with relative ease (financially speaking), even the ones that had to pay their own way. My girlfriend works part time at a phyiso clinic as a receptionist, gets paid pretty well, pays for her own school and textbooks and can still afford to live a normal "early 20's life". I guarantee, that the vast majority of students are in the same or an even better situation.

Stop with your sob stories.

The fact that students in Quebec, who have it even better then us, are bitching about this is an absolute joke. I hate them. I hate them all.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by polak

Why does everyone try and make their "student life" stories so damn bleak.

It's already extremely easy to go to school. Everyone of my friends from High School was able to get into post-secondary (or trades school) and finish it with relative ease (financially speaking), even the ones that had to pay their own way. My girlfriend works part time at a phyiso clinic as a receptionist, gets paid pretty well, pays for her own school and textbooks and can still afford to live a normal "early 20's life". I guarantee, that the vast majority of students are in the same or an even better situation.

Spoken like someone who never actually did post-secondary, but assumes its easy because he knows 5 people who did it no problem and thus that must represent the way it can be done by everyone.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Spoken like someone who never actually did post-secondary, but assumes its easy because he knows 5 people who did it no problem and thus that must represent the way it can be done by everyone.

I have two degrees, one of them while living out of my parents' home, and the other completely on my own. I did just fine.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Spoken like someone who never actually did post-secondary, but assumes its easy because he knows 5 people who did it no problem and thus that must represent the way it can be done by everyone.

I am currently finishing up my last class of my 4 year degree. I got a GPA that is in the mid 3's and already have 2 years of experience in the field as I took a year off to work full time in a position related to my field (still did a couple classes during that) and then found another job in the summer after I finished up my last full time semester.

I was lucky and didn't have to pay for school so I can only refer to the experiences of people who are close to me and I'm positive that none of them would say it's as difficult as some of you make it out to be.

[Hack&Lube]

The protests shouldn't be about how much post-secondary costs but rather how post-secondary is so poorly-designed in this country.

Almost everybody goes to University because they want to find a job. This isn't the past anymore where people just went to be enlightened, etc. It's a very practical thing. There was a recent documentary on how bad Canadian universities are at actually matching their courses and preparation with industry with their students. More and more graduates aren't finding work in their fields because Universities don't do enough to actually foster the proper fields and coordinate with industry and business to get students into them. As a result of this, students end up going back to school for even higher education which further removes them from that entry level that they really need to get their foot in the door.

They highlighted the huge glut of students with undergraduate degrees who couldn't find work and therefore went back to school for masters or education degrees... and the Ontario Teacher's College kept accepting people into their education program even though there's a tremendous glut of teachers in that province. They are accepting and churning out like 10 times the teachers that are actually needed. These students come out and are even more screwed than they were after their first round of education with even higher debts and no job prospects.

Sure there needs to be an onus on students to be realistic and do proper research as well but when you are young, dumb, and paying thousands of dollars for a higher education, that institution really should be grounding themselves more realistically as well to do a service for the country that is also subsidizing that institution instead of just putting more students into more seats into useless programs so they can make more money to build new buildings.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by polak

I was lucky and didn't have to pay for school so I can only refer to the experiences of people who are close to me and I'm positive that none of them would say it's as difficult as some of you make it out to be.

Dude, thanks for making my point for me. Of course if you're somewhere between middle class and rich going to school is easy as pie. You really think for the family making a combined income of $50,000/year that its going to be as easy for them to send their kids to school? Take out loans you say? Well those only take half of most people's adult lives to pay back.
I guess congrats on having a free ride through school. Some of us weren't that lucky, and had to work pretty ####ing hard and make some sacrifices to get it done. The fact that your sample of 7 people shows they all had an easy time getting through this means you have a poor sample size, not that that's the way it can be for most people.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Dude, thanks for making my point for me. Of course if you're somewhere between middle class and rich going to school is easy as pie. You really think for the family making a combined income of $50,000/year that its going to be as easy for them to send their kids to school? Take out loans you say? Well those only take half of most people's adult lives to pay back.
I guess congrats on having a free ride through school. Some of us weren't that lucky, and had to work pretty ####ing hard and make some sacrifices to get it done. The fact that your sample of 7 people shows they all had an easy time getting through this means you have a poor sample size, not that that's the way it can be for most people.

So the whole system is supposed to change because of the outliers who have it harder then some? There are a lot of ways for those in the lower class to access school

Sure not everyone is dealt equal hands but to say that getting an education in Calgary (let alone quebec where it's cheaper) is hard is quite the stretch by any standard. Also, I don't see how student loans could possibly take you that long to pay off. This isn't the US where school can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. You're either taking something which has pretty dismal job prospects (which is your own fault and you get zero sympathy from me and is also caused by the fact that education is too accessible) or you haven't actually finished school yet and don't realize that making monthly payments like that once you're working full time isn't nearly as difficult as you think it is if you stick to a budget.

Also, I don't get what your problem is with my sample size. It doesn't matter how rich your parents are if they aren't helping you pay for school. I'll refer back to my girlfriend's student career. She gets $0 from her parents. ZERO. They don't buy her books, they don't pay for her tuition, they didn't buy her a computer or a car and they don't pay for her gas. All she gets from them is a roof over her head and food when she is home to eat it. There is no difference between her and someone whose parents make sub 50K but provide food and shelter. Sure there are people who don't even get that, but like I said, you can't revamp the entire system for the outliers.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Dude, thanks for making my point for me. Of course if you're somewhere between middle class and rich going to school is easy as pie. You really think for the family making a combined income of $50,000/year that its going to be as easy for them to send their kids to school? Take out loans you say? Well those only take half of most people's adult lives to pay back.
I guess congrats on having a free ride through school. Some of us weren't that lucky, and had to work pretty ####ing hard and make some sacrifices to get it done. The fact that your sample of 7 people shows they all had an easy time getting through this means you have a poor sample size, not that that's the way it can be for most people.

By the time that my family had put my two sisters through university and law school for one and medical school for the other there was nothing left for me when I came home from the Military.

A student loan is not a great sacrifice if it doubles + your earning potential, there a scholarships and bursaries for lower income families. I don't see the argument that university is off limits to the poor unless its free, there are avenues.

Even after I got my student loans which back in the early 90's totaled around the $30,000 mark there were programs for forgiveness of portions of the loan dependant on factors.

If you want to in this country you can go to school. If $70.00 per year is preventing someone from going school or even a $500.00 per year increase as proposed earlier by the government then I think that my first thought is that I have to question how serious someone is about university education in exchange for a higher paying job.

Sometimes the juice has to be worth the squeeze.

On a side note with the rioters. I believe strongly that if your one of the rioters busted for the more violent acts or destroying property, you should be automatically expelled from your school and banned from any post secondary institution in this country for a period of 5 years.

[transplant99]

Bleeding hearts amuse me.

[Makarov]

I'm surprised that so many people here are so quick to begrudge people for exercising their democratic rights (even if they disagree with the cause.)

[polak]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I'm surprised that so many people here are so quick to begrudge people for exercising their democratic rights (even if they disagree with the cause.)

I didn't know it was your democratic right to riot.

[Canuck-Hater]

Ive said it before and I'll say it again, education is important and should be available to everyone regardless of social and financial status. It would be awesome if the whole country had affordable tuition like Quebec IMO.