Liberals introduce motion calling for formal process to repeal Indian Act

[CaramonLS]

I get that residential schools were a pretty raw deal for Aboriginals, but it was 33 years ago. Which was also when the last Residential School was closed down in Quebec. The last one was closed down in Alberta 37 years ago.

[Skootenbeeten]

If they truly want to fix the system they need to walk away from the reserves themselves and be treated like every other Canadian. No more freebies and huge cash windfalls for something they had no hand in.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I get that residential schools were a pretty raw deal for Aboriginals, but it was 33 years ago. Which was also when the last Residential School was closed down in Quebec. The last one was closed down in Alberta 37 years ago.

The last residental school was not closed until 1996

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia..._school_system

[moon]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Pretty sure that post is pretty damn racist.

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

This:



Makes is racist.

He didn't say that every native would waste the money on booze he said that a large amount of the money would be spent on booze which isn't racist but based on fact.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by David Struch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia..._school_system

That was in Sask. I mentioned AB and Que.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ools_in_Canada

[4X4]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanInOilCountry

I'm surprised that this debate so far has only been about dollars and cents. I understand that money is of primary importance, but unless you can present a system that Aboriginal groups feel that their rights are protected it's really a moot point. Aboriginals feel that they are Canadian citizens "plus" meaning that they are entitled to extra rights on top of Canadian citizenship because the Canadian government entered into treaties with Aboriginal Bands to see that their basic needs (healthcare, education, basic tools) are met, and the government then proceeds to mis-manage this responsibility for close to 1.5 centuries and then they just want to wash their hands and make every Aboriginal "equal" with the rest of the population? The government made multiple promises to aboriginal bands all over Canada, and they cannot just opt out when things do not go well.

You cannot just throw money at this problem, because that's what the government has been doing all along, and alot of Aboriginal groups have been mis-managing the funds given and that's part of how we have ended up where we are. The government can't manage Aboriginal groups so they try to give increase Aboriginal self-government, which doesn't work either. If the government wants to end the Indian Act, then they best get planning an amendment to the Indian Act that addresses the needs of all parties. The real problem is that a lot of Aboriginal groups do not what the same things of mainstream population (property ownership, entrepreneurship etc).

Are you sure that 'a lot of Aboriginal groups do not want the same things (property ownership, entrepreneurship)'? I'm certainly not calling you a racist here, but that statement is not much different than saying that they're drunks. Some are, some aren't. Some don't want preoperty ownership, but I bet that lots and lots do.

I think that the ones that don't want property ownership are the ones in charge. The chiefs and/or councils get to control the entire reserve, and from what I've learned here and there, you can fall out of favour with the guys in control, and pretty much get your house taken away by the chief. I'm not saying that happens every day, but the fact that it does happen at all is pretty out of place in our 'civilized' country.

The problem, as I see it, started when we put them on reserves, which limited their ability to live the way they were living before us European folk came along and took all the rest of the land, and essentially put them on little islands all over the country. That basically eliminated the possibility of the two cultures integrating and advancing simultaneously. And now, they're just so far behind, in standard of living, education, and just general confidence as a race, that it seems like they hardly care about doing anything that promotes success for future generations.

In some ways it baffles me that they have all this land, and don't bother to do stuff with it that will generate money. Sure there's a gas station and a casino and a golf course on the Tsuu Tina, but think about all the things they could be doing. The ring road thing is the obvious one. If they took the money Alberta offered, let the road go through, and then used the chunk of land that would appear to be inside the city as a place to put shopping and commercial things, they could generate loads of money for their band, as well as create lots of jobs. Things that would give a lot of people a lot of hope or purpose, rather than this life of living in near squalor that we're constantly hearing about.

On the other hand, it's not so baffling that nothing is really being done, when they've basically been pushed out of out society and treated like crap when they try to come in. It like they've been taught that they're losers, and now they believe it. Like the opposite of Jews that are rich, generation after generation, they're poor, generation after generation.

I don't know how to fix this, but paying them a half million dollars to take the rest of what they've got left isn't the answer. Maybe the reserves could get divided into usable lots and given to each member. Titled. Give them something to own. And make it 88 years before any of that land can be purchased by a non status person. Give them a chance to join this century, and hopefully they're be fully caught up by the next one. With this scheme, by the year 2100, the reserves will be gone, and many of the FN people will have really changed their family's course. Not everyone will win, but it's not like us Euros are all winning, either.

[moon]

Originally Posted by 4X4

On the other hand, it's not so baffling that nothing is really being done, when they've basically been pushed out of out society and treated like crap when they try to come in. It like they've been taught that they're losers, and now they believe it. Like the opposite of Jews that are rich, generation after generation, they're poor, generation after generation.

One of the problems is that they have been treated by crap by their own when trying to come in. As trendy as it is (and not saying you are saying this) to crap on the white man for pushing them out as many have said on here before there is a lot of backlash from their own community for "selling out" and trying to make something of themselves.

Sure mainstream society deserves some blame but until the Native community starts valuing education, productivity and self-subsistance I don't think much will change as these kids are being brought up to think that the lazy way of life is the way to go.

[Azure]

As hard as it is to believe that any reserve can be successful, I do recall a presentation given by a young native guy years ago at our school about the work he is doing at reserves to promote education, and getting kids to stay in school and finish. According to him he was very successful, and was recruiting to get more graduates to work with him. So it is possible to promote more effort from within.

I think this thread has shown that this issue is extremely complicated. 4x4 is exactly right though. Give them the chance to actually join this century, and MAYBE in a 100 years they will be close to catching up. It is that bad.

My opinion still is that no matter what the solution will be, or whatever law or agreement they come to, it has to be results driven. And the results will be pretty limited. It will probably take 20 years or a complete generational shift just to get more Native kids to graduate from high school. If we start right now.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Azure

It will probably take 20 years or a complete generational shift just to get more Native kids to graduate from high school. If we start right now.

That's exactly it. Things won't get better overnight, and it will be a long and complicated transition, but waiting and doing nothing is just perpetuating the problems.

[Vulcan]

From my experience natives don't look at things the same as Europeans. They are much less hung up on personal possessions and are very generous about giving away their goods. Just look at the west coast potlatches that the natives used to have where the way to gain the most esteem was to give away the best and most gifts as an example. This probably includes homes and land. This isn't bad but to our eyes it doesn't make sense. When I visited a traditional native home they give the gifts not the visitor. I don't know how much this is still carried on but it gives an idea of their different culture and way of thinking.

What I'm trying to say is that what we see as success isn't necessarily what they see as success.

[FlamesFanInOilCountry]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Are you sure that 'a lot of Aboriginal groups do not want the same things (property ownership, entrepreneurship)'? I'm certainly not calling you a racist here, but that statement is not much different than saying that they're drunks. Some are, some aren't. Some don't want preoperty ownership, but I bet that lots and lots do.

I think that the ones that don't want property ownership are the ones in charge. The chiefs and/or councils get to control the entire reserve, and from what I've learned here and there, you can fall out of favour with the guys in control, and pretty much get your house taken away by the chief. I'm not saying that happens every day, but the fact that it does happen at all is pretty out of place in our 'civilized' country.

The problem, as I see it, started when we put them on reserves, which limited their ability to live the way they were living before us European folk came along and took all the rest of the land, and essentially put them on little islands all over the country. That basically eliminated the possibility of the two cultures integrating and advancing simultaneously. And now, they're just so far behind, in standard of living, education, and just general confidence as a race, that it seems like they hardly care about doing anything that promotes success for future generations.

In some ways it baffles me that they have all this land, and don't bother to do stuff with it that will generate money. Sure there's a gas station and a casino and a golf course on the Tsuu Tina, but think about all the things they could be doing. The ring road thing is the obvious one. If they took the money Alberta offered, let the road go through, and then used the chunk of land that would appear to be inside the city as a place to put shopping and commercial things, they could generate loads of money for their band, as well as create lots of jobs. Things that would give a lot of people a lot of hope or purpose, rather than this life of living in near squalor that we're constantly hearing about.

On the other hand, it's not so baffling that nothing is really being done, when they've basically been pushed out of out society and treated like crap when they try to come in. It like they've been taught that they're losers, and now they believe it. Like the opposite of Jews that are rich, generation after generation, they're poor, generation after generation.

I don't know how to fix this, but paying them a half million dollars to take the rest of what they've got left isn't the answer. Maybe the reserves could get divided into usable lots and given to each member. Titled. Give them something to own. And make it 88 years before any of that land can be purchased by a non status person. Give them a chance to join this century, and hopefully they're be fully caught up by the next one. With this scheme, by the year 2100, the reserves will be gone, and many of the FN people will have really changed their family's course. Not everyone will win, but it's not like us Euros are all winning, either.

I think you had a lot of good points in your post, so thanks for that. I am very sure that alot of Aboriginal's do not want individual property rights, and you would be foolish to call me racist, so I'm glad that you did not. However, I don't think it's true to say that the only Aboriginals that do not want individual property ownership are those in power. Many Aboriginals that do not share communal ideals chose to move off reservation (hence Canada's growing urban Aboriginal population), but there are still massive Aboriginal populations that chose to stay on reserve.

There is a struggle within Aboriginal communities about what path to take. Should there be a concerted effort by certain bands to take a more modern approach to economics and property ownership and the counter argument that there should be a entrenchment of egalitarian property ownership, so that every thing comes to the band and is distributed throughout the community (this argument is linked very closely to a resurgence in traditional spirituality). The only successful initiatives will have to come from the Aboriginal groups themselves, so you can introduce ideas to the bands, but the bands need to see it as a viable option or it will just be considered another act of paternalism by the government. Latest academia suggests that hybrid Aboriginal governments following the line of the Nisga'a Agreement would be the most likely method that could be used to move away from the Indian Act, which would require individual agreements with various bands and not a singular piece of legislation like the Indian Act. However, Aboriginal groups feel that this agreement does not give Aboriginals enough power, and some non-Aboriginals feel that this agreement gives too much power to Aboriginals and sets a dangerous precedence for other minorities.

Basically, there is going to be no quick fix to this, but by watching how the Nisga'a Agreement continues to pan out as well as negotiations with other bands in Yukon will show that the only fix will be Aboriginal self governance. The only questions are to what degree will bands be permitted to govern and what government mandates will exist to ensure compliance without being perceived as paternalistic interference. The government will not just "cut a cheque" to Aboriginals across the country and rip up the Indian Act, nor should they.