Calgary's $8 BILLION Transit Plan - The RouteAhead

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

That's a nice plan, but it seems to me all that City Hall has done is connect existing neighbourhoods. What about the outlyers and future growth?

In 30 years Okotoks will be a part of the city (likely High River as well) and people are going to be complaining about connecting those, wondering why it wasn't discussed 30 years ago.

well good. those parasite communities need to put some money back into Calgary.

[Barnes]

^No way Okotoks is. Its 16km from Auburn Bay to the north side of Okotoks. That's the same as Auburn Bay to Erin Woods.

[Tron_fdc]

Not at all, I used to live there. It's gone from 2500 people when I was a kid (about 30+ years ago) to 25 000. In fact, when I moved away (1993) it was about 8000 so if it grows anywhere near that the city is going to be pretty darn close (especially factoring in Calgary's growth).

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Not at all, I used to live there. It's gone from 2500 people when I was a kid (about 30+ years ago) to 25 000. In fact, when I moved away (1993) it was about 8000 so if it grows anywhere near that the city is going to be pretty darn close (especially factoring in Calgary's growth).

Spoiler!

Using that map, given rough estimates of City limits 30 years ago (is there a good place to find this info?) and where it is now, the city would need to expand at at least 3-4 times the rate it expanded in the past 30 years.

edit: I think I drew the 30 years ago border a bit too far south for the actual city limits at that time, but I am pretty sure Fish Creek was it for quite a while in that period. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Okotoks has laws that prevent it from growing too much, which they are approaching, so expecting it to grow drastically in size is even less likely. Growth as you are suggesting, would have it almost as large as Calgary currently is, at 1 million people.

[NuclearPizzaMan]

This plan doesn't seem to take into consideration transit's penchant for 50%-150% cost/time overruns on projects.

[nik-]

The West LRT, the major contruction project, is doing fine on schedule.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Spoiler!

Using that map, given rough estimates of City limits 30 years ago (is there a good place to find this info?) and where it is now, the city would need to expand at at least 3-4 times the rate it expanded in the past 30 years.

edit: I think I drew the 30 years ago border a bit too far south for the actual city limits at that time, but I am pretty sure Fish Creek was it for quite a while in that period. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Okotoks has laws that prevent it from growing too much, which they are approaching, so expecting it to grow drastically in size is even less likely. Growth as you are suggesting, would have it almost as large as Calgary currently is, at 1 million people.

From what I understand Okotoks capped its growth because of water access, which they have been addressing. You also have to account for exponential growth, not straight line.

That argument aside, my point still stands. 30 years from now there are going to be a pile of new neighbourhoods, and nothing servicing them. Just an observation.

[Table 5]

You know what the biggest problem I see with this plan, and with Calgary's transit network at the moment?

You have all these LRT spokes going out from downtown to far away places, but it's damn near impossible to get from one spoke to the other without going through downtown. It's basically a commuter system, and not one where you can get around to do daily things other than work. I live in the Beltline, and I cant go to Kensington (which I can see across the river) without doing some convoluted route, waiting an hour for the bus, or walking for 30 minutes besides an ugly and congested commuter street (14th).

At some point, Calgary needs to start creating some wheels to the spokes. One wheel in the inner city.......Kensington - Bridgeland - East Village - Victoria Park - Beltline - Sunalta - Kensington.

And then another wheel that is farther out....so again you don't have to travel 15kms to go 2kms west.

At some point, we need to stop looking at Transit as just a way to get to work, but as a way to get around to do other things as well. I'd love to see some smaller scale trams and street cars to connect these neighborhoods without having to invest billions into these heavy-rail options.

Anyway, that's my bit.

[nik-]

Street Cars!

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by Table 5

You know what the biggest problem I see with this plan, and with Calgary's transit is at the moment?

At some point, Calgary needs to start creating some wheels to the spokes. One wheel in the inner city.......Kensington - Bridgeland - East Village - Victoria Park - Beltline - Sunalta - Kensington.

Anyway, that's my bit.

If only we had access to the same workers they had in Beijing.....I use the rail line all the time when I'm there and it's crazy efficient. I still can't believe how fast it went up.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by Table 5

You know what the biggest problem I see with this plan, and with Calgary's transit is at the moment?

You have all these LRT spokes going out downtown to far away places, but it's damn near impossible to get from one spoke to the other without going through downtown.

In all fairness... the roads in Calgary are no better. Want to get from SW Calgary to SE? There's not really a lot of options.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

In all fairness... the roads in Calgary are no better. Want to get from SW Calgary to SE? There's not really a lot of options.

How so? I can cut through Glenmore to go from the SW to SE. I don't have to drive to downtown, and then drive back out.

Crosstown driving might not be perfect either, but driving is a lot more flexible than transit...you set your route, and have SOME options. Right now, in terms of LRT, there isn't any......and from these plans it doesn't look like there will be any for a long time.

[Byrns]

Bring us the circle line!

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Table 5

You know what the biggest problem I see with this plan, and with Calgary's transit network at the moment?

You have all these LRT spokes going out downtown to far away places, but it's damn near impossible to get from one spoke to the other without going through downtown. It's basically a commuter system, an not a system where you can get around to do daily things other than work. I live in the Beltline, and I cant go to Kensington (which I can see across the river) without doing some convoluted route, waiting an hour for the bus, or walking for 30 minutes besides an ugly and congested commuter street (14th).

At some point, Calgary needs to start creating some wheels to the spokes. One wheel in the inner city.......Kensington - Bridgeland - East Village - Victoria Park - Beltline - Sunalta - Kensington.

And then another wheel that is farther out....so again you don't have to travel 15kms to go 2kms west.

At some point, we need to stop looking at Transit as just a way to get to work, but as a way to get around to do other things as well. I'd love to see some smaller scale trams and street cars to connect these neighborhoods without having to invest billions into these heavy-rail options.

Anyway, that's my bit.

This plan does "connect the spokes" on crosstown movements, but you're right - shorter intra-innercity trips as you describe are another challange that needs tackling. This is a rapid transit plan, those kinds of shorter intra-innercity trips could be handled with streetcar technology (Portland or Toronto style - in traffic ie not "rapid transit") and/or circulator bus routes. Those kinds of trips will be considered too in RouteAhead as part of the primary transit network (frequent all day service).

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Bunk

This plan does "connect the spokes" on crosstown movements.

I guess the issue is that all those crosstown movements right now are BRTs....which is something that feels work-only oriented. I can definitely understand it if it's a focus on Rapid Transit....but if we ever want people to move around town outside of work hours, BRT's sorta blow imo.

Originally Posted by Bunk

This is a rapid transit plan, those kinds of shorter intra-innercity trips could be handled with streetcar technology (Portland or Toronto style - in traffic ie not "rapid transit") and/or circulator bus routes.

I personally think buses only work if they come as frequently as trains, and move just as fast......which is almost never the case in an inner city. If I have to wait 30-45 minutes for each bus (and it only works during rushour), and it's going to be stuck in traffic and move 2 miles an hour.....then forget it. Streetcars can face the traffic issue too of course depending on how it's built, but hopefully they can have some dedicated space.

Hopefully the bike lanes in town keep developing too, would be great to be able to tool around town like they do in Montreal. Maybe not a year round solution of course, but that would be a great goal (which I know you guys are working on too).

Those kinds of trips will be considered too in RouteAhead as part of the primary transit network.

They better. Or else I'm gonna tell my wife to recommend you ugly drapes.

[morgin]

I'm bumping this and the ongoing transit thread - any mod online want to merge them? This discussion will be better preserved in the ongoing transit thread I think.

[Knalus]

I believe I read that the SELRT is planned to be at grade. Any reason for this? Sounds like a silly idea. Westjet made a decision early in it's life to only use one type of plane for it's fleet - it saved on parts, interchangeability of it's planes, each plane could do any of it's routes, ect. Why would Calgary Transit want to limit itself so thoroughly?

[Rathji]

I am confused how the connection between types of planes and if a track is above ground or not is relevant.

Are you suggesting that they need to use different types of cars, tracks or electrical lines in other situations? or that they would save a sizable amount by standardizing them?

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I am confused how the connection between types of planes and if a track is above ground or not is relevant.

Are you suggesting that they need to use different types of cars, tracks or electrical lines in other situations? or that they would save a sizable amount by standardizing them?

Sorry. Save a sizeable amount standardizing them, all things being equal.

[Maccalus]

Originally Posted by Knalus

I believe I read that the SELRT is planned to be at grade. Any reason for this? Sounds like a silly idea. Westjet made a decision early in it's life to only use one type of plane for it's fleet - it saved on parts, interchangeability of it's planes, each plane could do any of it's routes, ect. Why would Calgary Transit want to limit itself so thoroughly?

The SELRT being at grade outside of downtown makes alot of sense from a cost point of view. At Grade doesn't mean it can't be properly segregrated from traffic, there is just no need for it to be elevated or underground outside of downtown as there is plenty of land already set aside for it.

The SELRT would still use the same cars at the other 2 lines, keeping the maintance consistancy from your westjet analogy.