World's richest woman says poor should have less fun, work harder

[Slava]

Originally Posted by valo403

An incredibly overbroad statement. There are a myriad of reasons why people wind up in poverty, and a whole hell of a lot of them have nothing to do with bad choices.

Examples? I know I have a hard time with this (admittedly I find it hard to empathize with a lot of these situations), but I think most of these are the result of personal choice?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Slava

Examples? I know I have a hard time with this (admittedly I find it hard to empathize with a lot of these situations), but I think most of these are the result of personal choice?

Health. Mental Illness.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by troutman

Health. Mental Illness.

Intelligence is the big one.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by troutman

Health. Mental Illness.

Ok, fair enough. I kind of don't count that sort of thing at the start though, rightly or wrongly. I suppose it just seems so obvious that we're talking about people of average health and well being here?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Slava

Ok, fair enough. I kind of don't count that sort of thing at the start though, rightly or wrongly. I suppose it just seems so obvious that we're talking about people of average health and well being here?

I don't see that as being obvious at all, a significant portion of the poor face issues of health that make breaking out of poverty nearly impossible. And we're not just talking personal health either, we're talking about 14 year olds that have to leave school to work full time to support their family due to ill parents. We're talking about families that don't have the means to seek help, so children are left undiagnosed and untreated when it comes to learning disabilities.

If the person we're talking about is an average middle class white person from an average community then sure, effort alone will probably allow them to live quite comfortably. That's not really saying much though as you could figure that out from just walking down the street, heck for most of those people effort isn't even required.

[puckluck2]

She comes across as ignorant and an idiot. People don't need to work harder, they need to work smarter.

[Mr.Coffee]

People can and do whatever they want.

Is getting rich that important? Really, I don't sit around worrying about how to get rich, do you? If so, why?

Personally it's nice to have nice things but not necessary for a good, fulfilling life. Most of our needs and wants can be attained without enormous sums of money. The more materialistic our society becomes, the less appealing it really is and the more likely we will see a large, earnest correction in the future to be honest.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

People can and do whatever they want.

Is getting rich that important? Really, I don't sit around worrying about how to get rich, do you? If so, why?

Personally it's nice to have nice things but not necessary for a good, fulfilling life. Most of our needs and wants can be attained without enormous sums of money. The more materialistic our society becomes, the less appealing it really is and the more likely we will see a large, earnest correction in the future to be honest.

"Trying to make yourself happy with material things is like trying to feed yourself by taping sandwiches all over your body."

- Carlin

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

"Trying to make yourself happy with material things is like trying to feed yourself by taping sandwiches all over your body."

- Carlin

That would work, assuming by "feed yourself" he meant, "feed yourself to a bear"

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

That would work, assuming by "feed yourself" he meant, "feed yourself to a bear"

Not sure if serious.

[simmer2]

Success comes from working harder than everyone else, but it's where you choose to work hard that makes the difference. In my mind the biggest factor being Risk Tolerance/ROI and what a person is willing to work hard for. Examples being:

I work really hard at my job and get a 5% return per year in the form of a raise based on my efforts.

I work really hard in a business that's my own where the risk is higher but the return ranges from 5% -> 100% based on the opportunity.

If I work really hard in my own business where my return is 100%, I will be more "successful" than the guy who works hard and gets a 5% return working in a corporate job. The difference being, we both work hard but I am willing to take the risk being the guy everything falls back on in good times and in bad.

In order to be successful in one's own business though, you need access to cash. Arguably, if you are born middle to upper class, you do not have to work as hard to find money. If you are born lower class, I would guess there would be less access to money or it would be tougher to find.

[Yasa]

Let us take a break and read the beautiful poem by the lovely Gina Rinehart.

Originally Posted by Gina Rinehart

Our Future

The globe is sadly groaning with debt, poverty and strife
And billions now are pleading to enjoy a better life
Their hope lies with resources buried deep within the earth
And the enterprise and capital which give each project worth
Is our future threatened with massive debts run up by political hacks
Who dig themselves out by unleashing rampant tax
The end result is sending Australian investment, growth and jobs offshore
This type of direction is harmful to our core
Some envious unthinking people have been conned
To think prosperity is created by waving a magic wand
Through such unfortunate ignorance, too much abuse is hurled
Against miners, workers and related industries who strive to build the world
Develop North Australia, embrace multiculturalism and welcome short term foreign workers to our shores
To benefit from the export of our minerals and ores
The world's poor need our resources: do not leave them to their fate
Our nation needs special economic zones and wiser government, before it is too late.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Not really.

Back in the early 1980's in Peace River, earning about $700 a month, I did a budget and saw I could save $25 a month, which meant by Spring I would have saved $125 and therefore I might be able to take a little driving vacation. That is, if everything went perfectly.

I also remember having $20 for two weeks of food once. Lots of Campbell's soup and toast in those two weeks.

I've been there. At zero. And bitter with those who had money and threw it around in my face.

Her advice is sound.

It's only unfortunate the advice is coming from someone in the "Let Them Eat Cake" set. I get that.

These days I'm surrounded by millionaires. Talk to them every day. Most of them have very, very common beginnings not too dissimilar from my own in fact.

The common denominator is persistence through a lifetime of working. No miracle solution or motherlode.

Pretty much what Ugly, Rich Lady is saying.

Cowperson

Is that what she's saying though? Seems to me she is saying those who aren't rich are that way because they're lazy and/or enjoy the drink too much.

Plenty of hard working people never rise above middle-class.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

As someone who worked summers as slave labour hand-picking rocks out of a field for $400 a month, I agree.

I remember walking into our garage where my father, who worked two jobs to support us, was working on his car. I said: "I want to go to college and the tuition is $946 for the year."

"AAAAAGGGH!!!. What the hell do you want to do that for!!!???"

That was exactly the reaction. I'd stabbed him through the fiscal heart. I'll never forget it. It was a hard sell. He was trying to get ahead as well and money didn't grow on trees.

If you're still young enough, there isn't any neighbourhood you can't dig yourself out of if it means enough to you.

The advice the Old Withered, Rich Cow gave is sound. Disqualifying it due to her position in life doesn't make it less so.

Cowperson

So your father paid your tuition? Because there are a lot of people who aren't in a position where their parents can (or are willing) to do that.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Yasa

Let us take a break and read the beautiful poem by the lovely Gina Rinehart.

That's not a poem, it's a screed.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

As someone who worked summers as slave labour hand-picking rocks out of a field for $400 a month, I agree.

I remember walking into our garage where my father, who worked two jobs to support us, was working on his car. I said: "I want to go to college and the tuition is $946 for the year."

"AAAAAGGGH!!!. What the hell do you want to do that for!!!???"

That was exactly the reaction. I'd stabbed him through the fiscal heart. I'll never forget it. It was a hard sell. He was trying to get ahead as well and money didn't grow on trees.

If you're still young enough, there isn't any neighbourhood you can't dig yourself out of if it means enough to you.

The advice the Old Withered, Rich Cow gave is sound. Disqualifying it due to her position in life doesn't make it less so.

Cowperson

Sounds like times were tough for your old man. This woman and people who think like her would tell him to work harder. And put down the bottle.

Would that have been sound advice for him? I doubt it. Sounds like he was working pretty goddamn hard already. There must have been another reason times were tough.

Would he have appreciated one of the Bronfman kids telling him to get his ass in gear?


As for the obligatory fat joke:
Oh yeah, and I guess it wasn't the dingo who ate that baby.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

People can and do whatever they want.

Is getting rich that important? Really, I don't sit around worrying about how to get rich, do you? If so, why?

Personally it's nice to have nice things but not necessary for a good, fulfilling life. Most of our needs and wants can be attained without enormous sums of money. The more materialistic our society becomes, the less appealing it really is and the more likely we will see a large, earnest correction in the future to be honest.

“We've got a form of brainwashing going on in our country…. Do you know how they brainwash people? They repeat something over and over. And that's what we do in this country. Owning things is good. More money is good. More property is good. More commercialism is good. MORE IS GOOD. MORE IS GOOD. We repeat it--and have it repeated to us--over and over until nobody bothers to even think otherwise. The average person is so fogged up by all this, he has no perspective on what's really important anymore.” - Morrie Schwartz

" “If you’re trying to show off for people at the top, forget it. They will look down at you anyhow. And if you’re trying to show off for people at the bottom, forget it. They will only envy you. Status will get you nowhere" - Morrie Schwartz

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by blankall

To be fair to this woman, she proably one of the hardest working and intelligent business minds the world has ever seen. It's in no way fair to characterize her as a lazy socialite.

She inherited a company worth a few hundred million and turned it into a company worth about 20 billion within a decade. In 2007 she was worth 1 billion, and she is currently on track to become the richest person in the world ever, with a networth of 20-30 billion. She probably works 100+ hour weeks every week, which is why her looks and personal relationships are suffering.

She was born with a silver spoon in her mouth, but turned that into a platinum diamond encrusted spoon through years of hard work. Is she a jerk? probably. Is she lazy? absolutely not.

Does she work long hours and crunch difficult numbers and make big risks and calculate hard choices? Absolutely.

But I guarantee you she doesn't work nearly as hard as the workers who are mining that iron ore. And she makes a ridiculous amount of money more than they do. By her calculations, they are doing much, much harder work, for probably the same hours as she is putting in, so obviously they should be more successful than she is, correct?

Originally Posted by Slava

I want to agree with you, and I guess partly do. Thing is that in Canada education and hard work really are the great equalizer. I have a limited amount of sympathy for the "bad childhood" argument and how its basically a domino affect on people not being able to do A,B,C things with their lives.

I wouldn't suggest for a second that people working for minimum wage don't work hard, they definitely do. I worked those jobs and frankly working menial labour and having held numerous jobs at a time (all of which were terrible I assure you) was part of the reason that I made sure to finish school!

I can't speak to the Canadian education system, but in the US it isn't nearly so obtainable, and it's getting less and less attainable. Budget cuts are affecting already cash-strapped low-income schools, which leads to lower test scores and poorly educated youth, who are unable to then go on to college because they are unable to get scholarships. They work poorly paying jobs that barely give them a living wage because the minimum wage in this country is a sick, pathetic joke. You can work 40 hours a week, every single week, and just barely make enough to survive.

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I don't think she's lazy, but I do think she's completely out-of-touch with the plight of the poor. She got to where she is by being hard-working, intelligent, and having opportunities presented to her that are not available to 99.999% of the population. It's that last bit that makes all the difference. There are millions of hard-working people around the world that devote just as many hours to their jobs as she does but will never see even a tiny fraction of her wealth. It's not for lack of a work ethic that these people are poor.

I think people like her (and many, but not all, rich conservatives) have a very simplistic view of the world that follows this flawed line of reasoning:

1. I'm successful
2. I worked hard
3. Success, therefore, is the result of hard work
4. Anyone who is not successful must not work hard
5. Poor people must therefore be lazy
6. Why should my hard-earned tax dollars fund programs that benefit poor (i.e. lazy) people?

Meanwhile she fails to realize that the reason she is able to make so much money from her business are the very hardworking people who are below her in this company, because without them, she would be unable to do what she does.

Originally Posted by Cowperson

As someone who worked summers as slave labour hand-picking rocks out of a field for $400 a month, I agree.

I remember walking into our garage where my father, who worked two jobs to support us, was working on his car. I said: "I want to go to college and the tuition is $946 for the year."

"AAAAAGGGH!!!. What the hell do you want to do that for!!!???"

That was exactly the reaction. I'd stabbed him through the fiscal heart. I'll never forget it. It was a hard sell. He was trying to get ahead as well and money didn't grow on trees.

If you're still young enough, there isn't any neighbourhood you can't dig yourself out of if it means enough to you.

The advice the Old Withered, Rich Cow gave is sound. Disqualifying it due to her position in life doesn't make it less so.

Cowperson

The difference is that now, for a semester at say, Community College of Allegheny County here in Pennsylvania, the tuition costs for 15 credits runs at over $1600. And with more and more Americans losing jobs, it's really difficult to even come up with that, for just a community college. And if you want to go to, say, Penn State? A single semester, in-state tuition, runs over $8000.

And now you have Republicans wanting to cut and eliminate Pell Grants, the grant that made it possible for me to afford to go to technical school when my parents couldn't afford to pay for it. You have them wanting to raise student loan rates, so that even if someone does manage to get to college, once they're out of school and unable to find more than temp work or low-wage jobs, they spend so much time/money paying off their loans that they can't even break even, let alone get ahead.

Again, I can't speak to the educational systems and requirements and assistance in Canada, but in the US it is getting harder and harder for someone who comes from very little to move ahead, while it becomes easier and easier for those who come from wealth to continue on their path.

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't see that as being obvious at all, a significant portion of the poor face issues of health that make breaking out of poverty nearly impossible. And we're not just talking personal health either, we're talking about 14 year olds that have to leave school to work full time to support their family due to ill parents. We're talking about families that don't have the means to seek help, so children are left undiagnosed and untreated when it comes to learning disabilities.

If the person we're talking about is an average middle class white person from an average community then sure, effort alone will probably allow them to live quite comfortably. That's not really saying much though as you could figure that out from just walking down the street, heck for most of those people effort isn't even required.

Children are undiagnosed for learning disabilities, mental illnesses, etc. Or they attend a school that simply refuses to work with them on said learning disabilities. Those children may be incredibly bright, but they start out with such a disadvantage that it's hard to claw out of it.

[Thor]

I know some of the hardest working people in my life are farmers.

[puckluck2]

Fat people need to start exercising harder and eat healthier.