Legalizing Pot in Washington State Could Add $1.9b in revenue

[Azure]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Increased tax revenue isn't even the most compelling fiscally-responsible reason to legalize marijuana. The savings from governments no longer having to police, prosecute, and imprison recreational pot users will likely be significantly more than any income from additional taxes.

Yeah but we know governments don't actually 'save' money. They'll just spend it elsewhere.

It goes way beyond just the points you're making. Not imprisoning recreational pot users will result in more families staying together, and more kids actually growing up with a father, instead of being torn away from him leaving no other alternative besides gangs or crime.

Imagine the additional revenue from gaining thousands of citizens that have decent jobs and pay taxes.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Boshi

Health
Doesn't cause lung cancer http://www.thoracic.org/sections/pub...ng-cancer.html
Doesn't cause lung cancer http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...5F83414B7F0000
Doesn't cause brain damage http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/n...t-damage-brain
Negligible risk http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4305
Minimal Effect on Central Nervous System http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0630112652.htm
Doesn't cause oral cancer http://www.news.uiuc.edu/NEWS/04/0608oralcancer.html
Doesn't cause cancer http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/0607/Oct16_06/01.shtml
Pot shrinks tumors http://www.alternet.org/story/9257/
Government perspective http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/marijuana.html
Negligible consequences of using marijuana when pregnant http://www.mothering.com/articles/pr...ana-side4.html

Addiction
Comparision http://www.drugsense.org/mcwilliams/...c/addictiv.htm
Not addictive http://www.utmedicalgroup.com/pages/...addiction.html
Research http://www.stats.org/stories/2007/do...y_feb09_07.htm

Medicinal
Shrinks tumors http://www.alternet.org/story/9257/
Slows artery clogging http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the...l_marijua.html
Pot’s cancer healing properties
http://www.november.org/stayinfo/bre...cerKiller.html
Cannabis Reduces Skin Cancer
http://www.onlinepot.org/medical/skincancerreport.htm
Cancer - various/ unnamed
Derivatives of cannabis for anti-cancer treatment
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...o-do060605.php


Uses http://www.boston.com/news/globe/edi...s_wonder_drug/
Pain Relief http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021201332.html
Halts growth of Lung cancer tumors http://nallforgovernor.blogspot.com/...h-of-lung.html
Boosts brain cell growth http://www.aphroditewomenshealth.com...lth_news.shtml
Very scientific article on effects http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...gi?artid=33571
Many uses http://www.abovetheignorance.org/
Medical studies http://www.cmcr.ucsd.edu/geninfo/research.htm
Reduces lung cancer tumor growth http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0417193338.htm
Marijuana is safe http://www.schmoo.co.uk/thclub/research.htm
Protects against Alzheimer's http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4286435.stm
Protects against Alzheimer's http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0224111638.htm
Protects against Alzheimer's http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n2072101.shtml

Dr. Lester Grinspoon also published a book called "Marijuana Reconsidered" way back in the day. He's also featured in the youtube link I gave a few postings ago. People can wake up if they do some research.

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I agree completely with your point, but you'll find that the available scientific literature does favour the position of those who support legalization. Medically, marijuana is no more harmful than other legal recreational drugs.

About a decade ago, the Canadian Senate studied the issue for two years, interviewing hundreds of experts, and recommended legalization.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Co.../04sep02-e.htm

Okay, pro-legal side folks, take note of these guys.
They actually know how to make an argument.

I don't know if any of those studies are valid, and right now I don't care because it's not relevant in my life.

When the time comes for me to have an opinion on this, or vote on, it I'll give these a gander and see how I feel about them and vote accordingly.

Until that time I'm gonna remain neutral, and keep pointing out that the "it's safe caue it's a plant" crowd, are making a stupid, irrevant argument.

[Boshi]

Shantz, before you take such a stance -- read the material, go and check the studies commissioned by our own Government. I've read them, but have you?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Boshi

Correct mikey, the LD50 is astronomical; you can overdose on aspirin.. heck you can even overdose on water and die -- I dare someone to try and intake the amount needed to cause an overdose (only way you could is by ingesting mass quantities in the form of baked goods, and who would attempt to eat 40 trays of brownies? I mean.. if someone did, don't blame the marijuana.. the person is obviously not right upstairs).

This is why I make the argument of comparing Aspirin being legal, and pot being illegal.

I've never heard of anyone overdosing on pot, and yet I KNOW of kids that overdosed on Aspirin. From the 'safety' viewpoint, its simply doesn't stand.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Dude, like I said, I don't give a crap if pot is legal or not.
What I'm saying is learn how to make a valid argument.

Do you honestly think saying "Hey if you drink an unreasonalbe ammount of booze you'll die" is somehow going to convince anyone that you now what you're talking about?

Yes, I know booze will kill me if I drink too much, but how is that relevant to pot?
If you want to make a strong argument for pot being legal it should stand on it's own. It shouldn't rely on a comparison to something else.
Hell, cigaretts are slowly being phased out. It wouldn't supprise me to see them completely banned in my lifetime, so why would you want to use them as a comparible to why pot should be legal?

I'm not arguing with you about wheter or not pot should be legal, I don't care. What I'm arguing is that so many on the pro side, can't seem to make a valid argument that stands on it's own.

There are many valid arguments in this thread, but here would be my top 5 why

1. Savings from prosecuting, jailing and the related to the prison system
2. Increases personal freedom/liberty
3. Additional collection of tax revenue
4. Numerous medical benefits
5. Numerous benefits relating to hemp (materials namely)

I'd say those are 5 damn good reasons right there. Realistically, the only one you can argue against is the tax revenue because who even knows what a system of legal pot would look like.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Pot is harmless compared the pharmaceuticals and alcohol. If you disagree, I'll never be able to convince you otherwise except for a challenge that can be done.

Pot being illegal was at one point a more popular stance. It isn't anymore, but if you don't think pharma and alcoholic companies are working to keep it illegal, again I won't be able to convince you otherwise. There are myriad of reasons why they would want to keep it illegal.

As to that 54%, wanna guess who the number one group was that donated to the opposition effort?

I don't disagree with you on whether or not pot is more or less harmful than other substances. My complaint is with the terrible reasoning that is done by the pro legalization group. It is hard to take you seriously when you use a claim like "it is a plant and therefore safer than a chemical". Also claims that a vast lobby group is keeping it illegal make most people write you guys off as delusional. 46% of California voted in favour of legalizing, imagine how many more would join if you presented a better argument.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Boshi

Shantz, before you take such a stance -- read the material, go and check the studies commissioned by our own Government. I've read them, but have you?

What stance have I taken?
The only stance I've take so far is that "It's a plant so it's safe" is neither relevant nor correct. I haven't read those studies becasue they aren't relevant to the fact that being a plant does not make something safe to consume.

Pot may be safe it may not be, but being a plant is not sufficient to make that determination, so it's irrelevant to bring up if you're going to debate that.

I'm not debating the safety of pot, like I've said in just about every post, I don't care if it's safe, I don't care if it's legal. When the time comes for me to have an opinion on that (like if I need to vote on it) I'll do the reading and I'll make that determination. Until that point I don't care. But even at that point, someone saying "it's a plant", will carry about as much weight as saying "the sky is blue", it's not relevant to the question.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

"Some of my finest hours have been spent on my back veranda, smoking hemp and observing as far as my eye can see." - Thomas Jefferson

Hmm....and yet they made it illegal. Same dude had a hand in the ol' second amendment but apparently that one is infallible.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

There are many valid arguments in this thread, but here would be my top 5 why

1. Savings from prosecuting, jailing and the related to the prison system
2. Increases personal freedom/liberty
3. Additional collection of tax revenue
4. Numerous medical benefits
5. Numerous benefits relating to hemp (materials namely)

I'd say those are 5 damn good reasons right there. Realistically, the only one you can argue against is the tax revenue because who even knows what a system of legal pot would look like.

Okay, now go stick to those arguments and you'll never hear from me on the debate, because if you're using a valid argument, you won't be annoying, and I won't care either way.

[MarchHare]

Despite being on the pro-legalization side, I do strongly agree with Bring_Back_Shantz with respect to making sound and logical points to support your position. "It should be legal because it's a plant" is not a good argument.

Perhaps it's because I'm not a marijuana user myself that I can step back and examine this issue from a logical, rather than emotional, perspective. The available scientific literature has shown that marijuana use is not any more harmful than alcohol and tobacco. The available social science literature shows that there are negative societal effects to criminalizing its use. And, of course, there's a fiscal argument to be made that governments would bring in additional tax revenue and have reduced law enforcement expenses if marijuana possession for personal use was not treated as a criminal offence. For these reasons, it should be legalized.

The fact that pot is "just a plant" shouldn't be part of the conversation.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Has anyone in here actually said "Its a plant" is why they want it legal? I honestly don't think anyone has. I think people are perplexed that Jack Daniels, Jameson, Adderal and Xanax are legal while "a plant" isn't. But I haven't seen anyone say "It should be legal, its a plant" as the main reason they want it legal.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Has anyone in here actually said "Its a plant" is why they want it legal? I honestly don't think anyone has.

Third post in the thread

[Flames89]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

(re: Alcohol) ... pot offers similar effects ...

Umm. Nope.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Reaper

There are lots of people who smoke pot who are just really good at keeping a secret for legal and stigmatic reasons. I have a feeling that most people know more pot smokers than they realize.

How does a pot smoker keep it secret? Their clothes usually reek like marijuana or their cars reek of marijuana.

I occasionally smoke weed, but most of my friends are weed addicts.

It's hilarious when they try to be all sneaky after having a session and then come over trying to hide it from my girlfriend. They come in totally oblivious that they all stink and it smells like Snoop Dogg had just lit up a fatty in my living room.

If you smoke weed there is a very good chance people all around you know you do.

[Boshi]

Originally Posted by Iginla

How does a pot smoker keep it secret? Their clothes usually reek like marijuana or their cars reek of marijuana.

I occasionally smoke weed, but most of my friends are weed addicts.

It's hilarious when they try to be all sneaky after having a session and then come over trying to hide it from my girlfriend. They come in totally oblivious that they all stink and it smells like Snoop Dogg had just lit up a fatty in my living room.

If you smoke weed there is a very good chance people all around you know you do.

You don't have to smoke it. You can cook with it. Also.. there are vaporizers and if you make sure you don't blaze it up and immediately head out to meet with someone, it's no issue.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Azure

This is why I make the argument of comparing Aspirin being legal, and pot being illegal.

I've never heard of anyone overdosing on pot, and yet I KNOW of kids that overdosed on Aspirin. From the 'safety' viewpoint, its simply doesn't stand.

Again, that's irrelevant.
You should argue pot's legality based on the potential benefits and consequeces on it's own, now based on the fact that when used improperly a legal substance can do harm. Espeically when the total harm is basically negligable compared to the overwhelmimg good it has done.

Aspirin unquestionably has a greater positive impact on society than the rare consequences of an overdose. Can the same be said for pot? I don't know.
That's what you have to prove for pot for it to be a valid argument, and saying it won't kill you, but aspirin can, is not even close to proving anything of the kind.

Come up with supporting reason for pot based in it's own merits, and consequences, and leave other things out of it, and you'll actually have yourself a strong argument that has a chance of standing up to scrutiny.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Has anyone in here actually said "Its a plant" is why they want it legal? I honestly don't think anyone has. I think people are perplexed that Jack Daniels, Jameson, Adderal and Xanax are legal while "a plant" isn't. But I haven't seen anyone say "It should be legal, its a plant" as the main reason they want it legal.

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Actually, I was responding to this portion



Coca is natural. Opium is natural. Not cocaine and heroin. They are processed drugs. Marijuana is not. So while that may not matter to the argument to you, I'd ask if you would prefer to eat a carrot grown naturally in the ground, or a genetically modified plant based of a carrot that was manufactured in a lab?

More than anything, it speaks to the safe nature of the drug, that it isn't a massive congruence of chemicals like most pharmaceuticals and alcoholic beverages. Its just a plant.

Well, you explcitly said being a plant indicates that it's safe.
That's what I've been saying is a bad argument, beuase I can defeat it with one word.
Hemlock
Being a plant isn't sufficient to say it's safe, so it's not a valid argument.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Third post in the thread

Where did I say it should be legal because its a plant? I said its mind-boggling that a 'pill' like Advil is available over the countertop, despite the fact that you can easily overdose with it, which has happened numerous times in the past. Pot on the other hand is really not dangerous at all, is not altered chemically, and has not been proven to easily kill people because of an overdose.

It speaks more to the stupidity of our laws than it does to 'pot should be legal because its a plant.'

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Iginla

How does a pot smoker keep it secret? Their clothes usually reek like marijuana or their cars reek of marijuana.

I occasionally smoke weed, but most of my friends are weed addicts.

It's hilarious when they try to be all sneaky after having a session and then come over trying to hide it from my girlfriend. They come in totally oblivious that they all stink and it smells like Snoop Dogg had just lit up a fatty in my living room.

If you smoke weed there is a very good chance people all around you know you do.

I think you need smarter friends.

Think about how much weed gets distributed daily, now think how many people in a day do you smell weed on.

Unless you think weed is only done by those other people that you don't go near.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Well, you explcitly said being a plant indicates that it's safe.
That's what I've been saying is a bad argument, beuase I can defeat it with one word.
Hemlock
Being a plant isn't sufficient to say it's safe, so it's not a valid argument.

But thats not my argument as to why it should be legal. It was an observation that admitedly probably needs more context (yup, I know how pot is grown, not everyone does). But it wasn't me saying its a plant, it should be legal. It was more of "I know how its grown, its grown like most plants we eat", which should indicate its a safe plant.