Quebec nation debate could be re-opened in Liberal race

[Daradon]

Can You Trust the Liberal Government and Quebec?

Dude why are you so scared? Don't they have 6 seats or something?

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Are you suggesting that the potential Liberal policy (that may or may not even be adopted) would be in favour of an independent Quebec as opposed to a mirror of the Harper/NDP position? If so, on what information are you basing that assumption?

No I'm not... that would be political suicide in the rest of Canada.
What I saying is that it appears that some potential leadership candidates (ie. Marc Garneau) would be willing to go a little further down the "separation road" in order to garner support in Quebec, that would normally vote PQ.

Just because a policy is enacted doesn't mean that its a clear policy. Politicians are quite famous for this... always leave your self some wiggle room and at all costs never say what your really mean. A vague policy statement that can interpretted one way by separtists and another way by pro Canada supporters is perfect.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Can You Trust the Liberal Government and Quebec?

Dude why are you so scared? Don't they have 6 seats or something?

Not scared... just concerned. The worst thing that ever happened, in my opinion, was when Brian Mulroney openly courted avowed separatists and invited them into his party, in order to gain power. After finding that out, that's the last time I ever voted PC. In my opinion BM did more to further the dreams and asperations of the separtist cause than any other PM in Canada.

[MarchHare]

I really don't know what we're discussing anymore.

How are we supposed to comment on policies that haven't even been written, let alone adopted, yet?

Also, what's your source for Garneau suggesting he'd enact policies that are more favourable to Quebec separatists? I just did a search for "Marc Garneau" on Google News and found no articles mentioning anything like that. The quote of his in the linked editorial from your OP doesn't sound like he's promoting anything more than what Harper already enacted.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I really don't know what we're discussing anymore.

How are we supposed to comment on policies that haven't even been written, let alone adopted, yet?

Also, what's your source for Garneau suggesting he'd enact policies that are more favourable to Quebec separatists? I just did a search for "Marc Garneau" on Google News and found no articles mentioning anything like that. The quote of his in the linked editorial from your OP doesn't sound like he's promoting anything more than what Harper already enacted.

Perhaps I'm reading more into his statements than exists. If yes, I apologize for putting words in his mouth.

[Rerun]

I found this open letter from Marc Garneau..

My views have changed : Recognize Quebec as a nation

Marc Garneau
The Globe and Mail www.theglobeandmail.com
samedi 16 septembre 2006


Many Canadians have difficulty with the idea of recognizing Quebec as a nation. A solid grasp of history certainly helps to understand why this is a legitimate aspiration. Equally important are crystal clear definitions that we can all agree upon — a Promethean challenge that requires a willingness to accommodate and a great deal of goodwill.

My own views about this issue have evolved significantly over time. One event in particular helped me to focus on it more than I had before.

During the last federal election, I ran in a riding held by the Bloc Québécois. I lost that contest but in the process learned a great deal, most notably, that I was not quite on the same wavelength as my fellow Quebeckers.

First of all, I had been out of the country from 1992 to 2000 training as an astronaut and had not had the opportunity to appreciate the profound changes taking place in Quebec, including Canada’s near-death experience in the 1995 referendum.

Secondly, my perspective of Canada and of Quebec was shaped by English national newspapers and from watching English television, which I believed, gave me an encompassing sense of my country. In reality, I was living inside a bubble.

And finally, like most of us, I was not immune to my own biases. For instance, in 1970, I met James Cross when he hosted me and other winners of a scholarship program funded by the British Board of Trade. Just days later, he was kidnapped. A year later, I and the other Canadian students he had hosted, were invited to a lunch and he was the guest of honour. I sat immediately to his left during the lunch and did my best to converse with him. However, when I saw how the man appeared to have aged 20 years, I felt tremendously disturbed by what had happened to him. Clearly, we are all profoundly shaped by our past experiences.

It took my personal involvement in a federal election to get back in touch with Quebec’s reality. And today, I can say without hesitation or shame that I had not realized to what extent Quebeckers had evolved in a new direction. I’m referring to all those French Quebeckers who are both federalists and nationalists, that is to say Canadians with a strong sense of their own distinct culture, language and what makes them feel unique within our country. They had moved away from the federal parties because of repeated failures to recognize Quebec’s unique status within our confederation. Today, they still feel profoundly wounded by this lack of recognition. And I’ve come to recognize the legitimacy of their grievance.

As it stands, I believe Canadians think they understand each other and that when it comes to recognizing Quebec, it’s just a matter of disagreement rather than of misunderstanding. I no longer agree with this viewpoint. I very much think that we remain two evolving solitudes.

But what concerns me at this point is our inertia. Yes, we needed a cooling off period after so many failed attempts at constitutional reform by so many people of goodwill. Now, however, we must not be gripped by paralysis or by the hope that if we concentrate on other things, the problem will go away.

Or perhaps even the belief that there will be a more favourable time in the future to face this problem.
This problem will not go away by itself. The longer we wait the greater the risk.

We must find a way to recognize Quebec’s legitimate aspirations, not for independence but for recognition and reconciliation. I love my country and I love the province in which I was born and currently live. If I could say one thing to my fellow Canadians who do not agree with or understand what they view as an unjustified or irrational obsession coming from Quebec, it would be this : Please take some time to try to understand the issue in all of its historical and cultural dimensions.

The time has come to recognize the sociological and historical reality of the Quebec nation and the enormous power of this symbolic gesture. It won’t change your lives, but it will surely make Canada a stronger country.

http://www.vigile.net/My-views-have-changed-Recognize

[MarchHare]

First of all, that letter is six years old, so it's not exactly newsworthy or indicative of a recent change in Garneau's views.

Secondly, what specific passage do you think indicates he supports anything more than what was already enacted by the Conservative "Quebec is a nation" bill from 2006? Keep in mind that this letter was written just a few weeks before Harper's legislation was passed by Parliament, so it's important to be mindful of the context.

[Rerun]

I know the letter is 6 years old. I didn't post it as a rebuttle.
Just as something I found that reflected his opinion in 2006.

Not sure what his current views are and I really don't know what his exact views were then. Not once has he defined Quebec nation.

It certainly is open to interpretation depending upon your pov.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

First of all, that letter is six years old, so it's not exactly newsworthy or indicative of a recent change in Garneau's views.

Secondly, what specific passage do you think indicates he supports anything more than what was already enacted by the Conservative "Quebec is a nation" bill from 2006? Keep in mind that this letter was written just a few weeks before Harper's legislation was passed by Parliament, so it's important to be mindful of the context.

The full title of the bill is "Quebec as a nation within a united Canada"... which kind of changes things from "Quebec is a nation".

The former implies a distinctness within the confederation of Canada, the latter implies a nation-state possibility, with powers equivalent to Canada the country.

[MarchHare]

Not once has he defined Quebec nation.

He quite clearly called it a "symbolic gesture". That doesn't sound like he's in favour of granting more independent powers to Quebec or supporting anything more than what Harper already passed in 2006.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Not scared... just concerned. The worst thing that ever happened, in my opinion, was when Brian Mulroney openly courted avowed separatists and invited them into his party, in order to gain power. After finding that out, that's the last time I ever voted PC. In my opinion BM did more to further the dreams and asperations of the separtist cause than any other PM in Canada.

That's the worst thing that has ever happened?

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

He quite clearly called it a "symbolic gesture". That doesn't sound like he's in favour of granting more independent powers to Quebec or supporting anything more than what Harper already passed in 2006.

You are correct. My mistake.

Do you think Quebec Liberals believe that this symbolic gesture is enough in 2012/2013? Or will it take more than this in order to regain their power base in Quebec?

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Daradon

That's the worst thing that has ever happened?

Thats what I said, and I meant in the context of Quebec Separation aspirations. I assume you think otherwise. Please elaborate.

[MarchHare]

the latter implies a nation-state possibility, with powers equivalent to Canada the country.

Do you really think any Liberals are in favour of that? The editorial in your OP pointed out that some Liberals (such as Marc Garneau) support the symbolic concept that Quebec is a nation within Canada -- a position shared by the Conservatives, NDP, and even the Bloc. Meanwhile, other Liberals (such as Justin Trudeau and Gerard Kennedy) are opposed to that idea because they think granting special status to a province is harmful to national unity. Regardless of which side of this issue they're on, though, all Liberals are federalists who strongly support a unified Canada, not a sovereign Quebec.

As for my personal views, I tend to side more with Trudeau and Kennedy on this one, but it's not exactly high up on the list of vote-deciding issues that are important to me.

[Edit] This was written before you posted your acknowledgement that Garneau was only speaking about Quebec nationhood in the context of it being a symbolic gesture, not as a fully sovereign and independent nation.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Thats what I said, and I meant in the context of Quebec Separation aspirations. I assume you think otherwise. Please elaborate.

How can I elaborate a question?

I guess I am confused and moderately excited about the morality and importance of your world views?

To elaborate I guess I may ask why that was more important than (I wrote a bunch of good stuff, but it's going to give you red herrings so I'll say, 'everything else')

If it was in context, I missed it and I apologize. But based on this thread, and the amazingly re-titled last one, I'm pretty sure I know who you are and how this ends.

If you want to have legitimate discussion, it exists.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Do you really think any Liberals are in favour of that? The editorial in your OP pointed out that some Liberals (such as Marc Garneau) support the symbolic concept that Quebec is a nation within Canada -- a position shared by the Conservatives, NDP, and even the Bloc. Meanwhile, other Liberals (such as Justin Trudeau and Gerard Kennedy) are opposed to that idea because they think granting special status to a province is harmful to national unity. Regardless of which side of this issue they're on, though, all Liberals are federalists who strongly support a unified Canada, not a sovereign Quebec.

As for my personal views, I tend to side more with Trudeau and Kennedy on this one, but it's not exactly high up on the list of vote-deciding issues that are important to me.

No, I don't think any Liberals are really in favour of that... but it has been known to happen where votes are garnered and vague promises are made to possible party candidates who's true aspirations and desires may not reflect the party line... and that is a slippery slope to start down on.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

So at what point should the rest of Canada say 'Ok, enough. Perhaps we want you to leave?'
And if we do, I vote we do it the right way...we say 'I break with thee' three times and throw dog poop on their shoes.

If if comes down to voting to kick out provinces, Alberta would be out long before Quebec. Or anywhere else for that matter.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

If if comes down to voting to kick out provinces, Alberta would be out long before Quebec. Or anywhere else for that matter.

Doubtful, I think that most Canadian's realize that warts and all they need Alberta to pay the bills.

Canada without Quebec would be on paper better off economically.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Doubtful, I think that most Canadian's realize that warts and all they need Alberta to pay the bills.

Canada without Quebec would be on paper better off economically.

I completely agree with Canada needing Alberta. As would most people with a braincell.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Doubtful, I think that most Canadian's realize that warts and all they need Alberta to pay the bills.

Canada without Quebec would be on paper better off economically.

You do realize a lot of oil has shifted to Sask and NFLD? Agreed we are still big, but the promise isn't here anymore.