Harper stands against EU

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Dude I always read your posts and agreed with what you wrote up until this part where I stopped reading...Private profits and socialised losses is a right wing doctrine? lmao...you can't be serious.

This is precisely what is happening - German/French/Dutch/Spanish banks going insane (lending money to bottomless pits while charging extra risk premiums and now the house of cards fell on them..correction..was about to fall on them, but the ECB came to the rescue and bought their toxic debt so now its the european taxpayer holding the bag of poo that was originally in bank's hands. This is what happened but how in the world is a right wing doctrine? A right wing doctrine would be to let the banks fall, investors will be taken to the cleaners and when the dust settles the economy (healthier) would move on.

Hmmm, didn't a right wing US President just do the exact opposite of this?

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Slava

Except for that whole sovereign debt issue. You know...the one where Greece needs a bailout, and there are all kinds of other countries who have either already been bailed out or might need to be. Otherwise though, sure, its a banking issue.

Greece was an issue because French Dutch and German banks held their debt. That was the issue, Merkel, Sarkozy and a Dutch guy explaining to their electorate why some of their banks went belly up and why their pension funds took a bath.

Now that these banks dont hold the poo bag anymore and German/French pensioners (probably the most influential electorate in the world) are safe, Greece might as well be kicked out of the eurozone.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Hmmm, didn't a right wing US President just do the exact opposite of this?

What right wing US president? Surely you don't mean Bush?

What was Ron Paul's stance on this?

[Thor]

Thank you Itse, great post and helped me feel better.

The sheer amount of comments which sound like Americans harping on dirty socialist EU coming from my dear CP was disheartening.

You guys should know better.

[FlamesAddiction]

The whole idea of "left wing/right wing" policy has been thrown out the window in the past 20 years.

Many right wing institutions and governments these days don't mind socialism for the rich.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

What right wing US president? Surely you don't mean Bush?

What was Ron Paul's stance on this?

Let me gues...Bush is a liberal? He's not a centrist, so he's either a right-winger or a liberal...And why does he not count? If he believed so much in the right-wing ideology, wouldn't he have vetoed the bailout? But thats not what right-wing ideology has become, its about corporate welfare as opposed to individual welfare.

As to Ron Paul, he's a Libertarian, not a right-winger. Right wingers would never approve defense spending reductions, declining the empire, or drug legalization. You can say thats what right-wingers should be about, but thats not what most of them are currently about.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Greece was an issue because French Dutch and German banks held their debt. That was the issue, Merkel, Sarkozy and a Dutch guy explaining to their electorate why some of their banks went belly up and why their pension funds took a bath.

Now that these banks dont hold the poo bag anymore and German/French pensioners (probably the most influential electorate in the world) are safe, Greece might as well be kicked out of the eurozone.

That's still a sovereign debt issue though, not a bank issue. If a bank lends me too much money and I need help funding the loan, is it an issue with the bank or with me? Arguably both, but if the bank wants to lend me $10m and I know its nearly impossible for me to carry the loan it's my problem.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Let me gues...Bush is a liberal? He's not a centrist, so he's either a right-winger or a liberal...And why does he not count? If he believed so much in the right-wing ideology, wouldn't he have vetoed the bailout? But thats not what right-wing ideology has become, its about corporate welfare as opposed to individual welfare.

As to Ron Paul, he's a Libertarian, not a right-winger. Right wingers would never approve defense spending reductions, declining the empire, or drug legalization. You can say thats what right-wingers should be about, but thats not what most of them are currently about.

Then we disagree on the definition of "right-wing"

Just because someone is religious/conservative in social issues doesn't make him a right wing. I get that these people label themselves as such, but if I label myself a jazz musician while I can't play any instrument well that doesn't make me a jazz musician does it...

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Then we disagree on the definition of "right-wing"

Just because someone is religious/conservative in social issues doesn't make him a right wing. I get that these people label themselves as such, but if I label myself a jazz musician while I can't play any instrument well that doesn't make me a jazz musician does it...

But that's the thing....perception is reality. Blame the social conservatives for stealing the title, but they have altered the general association of right-winger. At the same time though, with the tea party influence, the Republican party has gone harder right, socially and fiscally. I mean the Norquist Tax Pledge is a perfect example of hard right fiscal policy, and 95% of Republicans have signed it. As many pundits have mentioned, Reagan, their demigod, would never get nominated today because he'd be viewed as too liberal.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Slava

That's still a sovereign debt issue though, not a bank issue. If a bank lends me too much money and I need help funding the loan, is it an issue with the bank or with me? Arguably both, but if the bank wants to lend me $10m and I know its nearly impossible for me to carry the loan it's my problem.

True, but Greece is an "issue" because it was G/F/D banks holding their debt. If it were I dont know, Peruvian banks then Greece would have been kicked out of eurozone and defaulted no questions asked.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Itse

The EU does not equal Europe any more than the UN equals the worlds, and there should be no assumption that what the EU does somehow represents either general European opinions or general European interests.

I don't think anybody does equate them...it's just that there's a sentiment that it is better for the nations to find the money themselves, especially when a country that has benefited from the Eurozone (such as Germany) likely has the capacity to find the money from the years they have been in union. If memory serves, the weakness of countries such as Greece have managed to keep the Euro lower and have left German exports stronger than they really should be. The feeling I get is that this is all just a way to make their own federal budgets look better to their parliaments if foreign money is used instead of looking like an enabler to the concerned nations (which, as you point out, is hard to do as you state many citizens are questioning the wisdom of the Eurozone).

[TurnedTheCorner]

I start humming R.E.M. when I read this thread title. It dovetails with Canada's friendliness and serves as a non-threatening soundtrack to this event.

[Flamenspiel]

Well, it looked for awhile like there was going to be near unanimity on here! The bottom line is the government made the right decision and based on what you hear in parliament, one that the two other parties would have differed on it.

I believe Mulcair is an EU citizen so its understandable that he would look at it from another perspective. I remember that Ignatief also had dual citizenship(or was it tri?), not sure about the current liberal leadership and where they stand. A big mistake by Mulcair and he really stepped into it, i can already see the attack adds for the next election.

[Azure]

I would raise taxes to 75% for rich people.

That will fix the problem!

Blame the rich people.

[longsuffering]

I support Harper's position.

The only way I'd ever consider loaning them money is if they come out in full support of the oil sands and ethical oil, the seal hunt, and allow Canadians to work in the EU without needing a work visa.

[Itse]

Since I threw a long and a little rantish text out there I feel the need to say that I'd love to talk about this further but I'm currently travelling in Venice so I wont have the time for the net much.

Wasnt an intentional driveby posting.

I also felt the need to say that because it's nice to be in Venice. Maybe I'll question a local for the finer points of Italian politics.

More propably well talk about wine some more. Gotta go, bye

[Table 5]

Watch out for the tornadoes, Itse!

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I would totally be on board if we got a tropical island out of it.

It's a deal!

[Tinordi]

What a courageous leader. Standing up to the EU like that. Inspiring is the only way to describe it.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Itse

Since I threw a long and a little rantish text out there I feel the need to say that I'd love to talk about this further but I'm currently travelling in Venice so I wont have the time for the net much.

Wasnt an intentional driveby posting.

I also felt the need to say that because it's nice to be in Venice. Maybe I'll question a local for the finer points of Italian politics.

More propably well talk about wine some more. Gotta go, bye

I hate you.