The Montreal Student Riots

[CaptainCrunch]

If someone had a job lined up or a promotion at a job lined up contigent on thier graduation and degree could they sue that mega d0cuhe in charge of Classe for lost income?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Their issue is that they have traditionally had affordable tuition and they would like to see it stay that way. Just because the rest of Canada is willing to go into oppressive debt before even starting into the work force doesn't mean our way is right and their way is wrong.

There issue is that they don't like the idea of paying more of their own freight. But good luck trying to wean a society built around welfare off of it.

And when "their way" includes violence and rioting, then their way is wrong. These clowns deserve no sympathy or support whatsoever.

[CaptainCrunch]

The other bottom line is as the Students tuition increases, its not like the governments investment is getting smaller, its either stabilizing or still continuing to grow.

[schteve_d]

Prices go up.

I thought everybody knew that?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

Prices go up.

I thought everybody knew that?

Not according to pinkie commie's

[Stranger]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I went to one of the most expensive universities in the country (Mount Allison) where tuition was more than $6k/year while I was a student, yet I was completely debt-free within a year of graduating. How could I have avoided crushing student debt if my tuition was double the proposed rate that the protesters in Quebec are rioting against? I worked a student job every summer and put every last penny towards my education. No beer money, no spring break trips to Mexico, no luxuries, nothing.

I hate to sound like a grumpy old man complaining about the damn kids these days, but seriously! The protesters are disrupting classes over a mere $325/year tuition increase. That's less than a week's salary working a minimum wage job in Quebec. Nobody who could otherwise afford a university education will be deterred by that trivial amount.

If I was in my final semester of studies and just wanted to graduate so I could enter the workforce, I'd be absolutely furios with the rioters. If the students lose their semester because of the protests, their graduation and entry into the workforce will be delayed by six months. Assuming they could have landed an entry-level job earning $45-50k out of school, they're poised to lose $22.5-25k of lifetime earnings because some troublemakers would rather skip class than pay a mere $325 extra per year.

Some of these kids probably spend $325 on Starbucks and a cellphone in a month.

[OffsideSpecialist]

Hm, apparently a lot of Ontario groups have been giving financial support to these protesters. I hope it doesn't spread here.

Today I was speaking to a colleague that goes to McGill. He was telling me that his program was rather unaffected as he is in an english engineering program. He tells me it's mostly French students in non-professional programs that have been doing the protesting. His classes have been disrupted, and they have been canvassing the student housing areas at all hours of the day, so he's glad to be back in Ontario for a little while.

He was also telling me that he knows of a girl from France attending a french school in Montreal, paying international fees who lost both her semester and money. Apparently she is livid and I can't blame her. I feel sorry for the students in Quebec who don't benefit from their cheap tuition and are going to lose out on time in the workforce due to the time required to complete their degrees being elongated. Those are the real losers out of all of this.

[Lil Pedro]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Sometimes short-term pain is worth long-term gain.

Strikes often hurt those participating as they never gain the wages back that they lose during the strike. However, if it produces benefits for those that join the company down the road, then the sacrifice was worth it. If you view the world only in terms of self-interest, then yeah, these students likely won't benefit from their actions. But I think you have to look at what the next generation has to contend with if tuition keeps rising the way that it has across the rest of Canada.

You raise some good points, I have to agree with you, but this part bolded is what I just fail to understand. Lets face it, tuition costs keep rising across Canada, why shouldn't it happen in Quebec? What makes them exempt from accepting a rise in their education costs? They already pay the lowest tuition rates in the country
Note: I'm not trying to create a Canada vs. Quebec argument whatsoever, just merely voicing my opinion

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by OffsideSpecialist

Hm, apparently a lot of Ontario groups have been giving financial support to these protesters. I hope it doesn't spread here.

Today I was speaking to a colleague that goes to McGill. He was telling me that his program was rather unaffected as he is in an english engineering program. He tells me it's mostly French students in non-professional programs that have been doing the protesting. His classes have been disrupted, and they have been canvassing the student housing areas at all hours of the day, so he's glad to be back in Ontario for a little while.

He was also telling me that he knows of a girl from France attending a french school in Montreal, paying international fees who lost both her semester and money. Apparently she is livid and I can't blame her. I feel sorry for the students in Quebec who don't benefit from their cheap tuition and are going to lose out on time in the workforce due to the time required to complete their degrees being elongated. Those are the real losers out of all of this.

What are the options? Would it be possible to transfer to a non-Quebec school for the next semester if this continues into the fall?

[flamesfan6]

i haven't really followed this too much, but after seeing the price increase that triggered this, WTF?!??!?!?! quebec?

$325 an extra per year? Really? that causes you to go on "strike" and protest. Still being lowest tuition in Canada?

I paid $600 / course on many courses, $325 a year is nothing in grand respects of what I saw in my 4 years of University with slight increases (and no riots...)

[1stLand]

I walked along Stephen Avenue today and I saw protesters out with huge banners supporting the Student Protesters in Quebec.

I have suspecions these people werent native Calgarians because they spoke with an accent and seemed out of place.

They looked like anarchists and professional protesters and not students.

I briefly overheard one of the protesters arguing with a businessman and listening to this protesters arguments made it seem like he didnt know what he was talking about and not in University.

What a joke.

[browna]

Students part time or full time whipped up into a fight against "the man (or le homme)", by other unwashed types who may or may not be students, but missed out on doing their bit for the occupy protest, via social media and pack mentality.

Fills those students sense of belonging as part of a big group, and its gotten bigger,simply as others don't want to be out of the group. Although you'd never track it, I assume most are going for BA degrees, and I'd be surprised if they even finish them at all.

Regardless, the protesters are setting themselves up nicely with this experience for future union positions within Quebec, where you're often entitled to more than you deserve, simply based because you're part of a strong arm organization.

Too bad for those actually trying to get through school as quick, and efficiently as possible.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Hate to say it but your friend should have gone to jail. I hate Chretien with a passion, but that's physical assault more then its a acceptable protest, just like these thugs hurling rocks and molitov cocktails.

That's neither here nor there. My point was that there were SOME in English Canada that were willing to risk going to jail for the cause. Just not enough to make a difference.

The government of quebec should have never gone to the table with the protestors as soon as the protests took on a violent edge.

Were you against black civil rights because of the Black Panthers? You can't dismiss a whole movement because SOME choose to be violent.

And lets define affordable tuition, if you reduced it by a third there would still be groups whining for less.

What you call "whining" is another man's "standing up for what you believe in".

Tuition is an investment into your future earning potential. Governments simply don't have enough money to keep subsidizing it at an increasing level, and average Joe citizen is already taxed enough.

And there is the crux of the matter in a nutshell. They do not think Joe Citizen is taxed enough. Quebec and Alberta will absolutely never get along because Quebec is far, far more socialistic than Alberta. The hatred towards the province is very clear in this thread and I predicted that that is the way the thread would go right from the beginning.

The Quebec government is basically broke, so sadly their lavish social programs are going to have to take a hit. And Students are going to have to either pay more, or pay the same and accept less in the ways of service or accesibility to programs.

I agree that the province is in a fiscal mess. They need to gain more revenues and cut spending. It's just that the student's want those revenues and cuts to hit those in the work force, not those trying to get into the work force.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

And when "their way" includes violence and rioting, then their way is wrong. These clowns deserve no sympathy or support whatsoever.

This "violence" angle keeps coming up. This isn't a monolithic group. I don't understand how you can dismiss the thousands protesting peacefully because of the actions of a few.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Lil Pedro

You raise some good points, I have to agree with you, but this part bolded is what I just fail to understand. Lets face it, tuition costs keep rising across Canada, why shouldn't it happen in Quebec? What makes them exempt from accepting a rise in their education costs? They already pay the lowest tuition rates in the country
Note: I'm not trying to create a Canada vs. Quebec argument whatsoever, just merely voicing my opinion

Most provinces across Canada have to pay the HST.
British Columbia does not.
Why?
Because they stood up and said they didn't want their province run that way. They stood up, protested in all means possible and demanded that they do things different.

As for "already pay the lowest tuition in the country", I would think they would say that it isn't a matter that theirs is too low. I think they would say that ours is much too high. And like I said before, the rest of Canada just meekly accepted the gradual doubling and tripling of tuition prices.

And it's not $300. That's what it started with here in Nova Scotia. Then it was another $300. And then another $300. And it kept going up because nobody put their foot down like these students are.

[Smartcar]

From Macleans:

How did the movement attain such strength and longevity?

The answer lies largely with a particular thrust in Quebec society that links ideals of social democracy—such as widely affordable university education—to a sense of national identity. These ties date back to the Quiet Revolution of the 1960s, a time when Quebecers became maîtres, or masters, of their own province, instituting changes that gave Quebec a more left-leaning bent than elsewhere in North America. ... The era spawned the Parent report, a document that created the province’s tuition-free colleges (called CEGEPs) and founded its network of universities. At the core of the report lay a dedication to make post-secondary education free for all Quebecers.

In the years since, as tuition fees gradually climbed in English Canada and the United States, Quebec students have repeatedly taken to the streets to defend the spirit of the Parent report. ... Charest’s proposal isn’t a mere tweak to an old system, he says. It’s an unprecedented departure from the model outlined in the Parent report, a system founded in the image of low-tuition Scandinavia, France and Germany. The changes will make it more expensive. More North American.

Access to education is fundamental to equal opportunity. It's unfortunate that funding for education isn't given higher priority.

[Senator Clay Davis]

The number one reason Charest's government shouldn't have even had discussions with the protesters is it allows them to think they are winning and going to win. And if they win, whats the stop them from protesting for any and every nickle and dime? Next year it'll be textbooks are too high, then food prices, then transit, and on and on and on. Its no different than negotiating a hostage situation. When you give in to the demands once, your opponent knows you're weak enough to give in again.

As to what the students actually want: Cry me a river. Advanced education should never be looked at as an expense, rather as an investment in one's future. If people aren't willing to pony up a little more to help ease the province's financial burden over the long haul, then cool. Just don't complain when they finally do get to the workforce that their taxes rise sky high, or all the services they looked forward to enjoying as adults (namely daycare) are scrapped because they cannot be sustained.

As a former Montrealer, these protesters are embarassing the good hard working people of the city, and embarassing all Montrealers everywhere. The city/province indisputably have a history for violent protest and rioting, and even if 99% of protesters are peaceful, its the 1% who help foster and keep this image up.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

This "violence" angle keeps coming up. This isn't a monolithic group. I don't understand how you can dismiss the thousands protesting peacefully because of the actions of a few.

I dismiss the thousands protesting peacefully for the reasons I state above - their false sense of entitlement. That their vapid protests are sheltering and encouraging those who would use violence is only a bonus.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by flamesfan6

i haven't really followed this too much, but after seeing the price increase that triggered this, WTF?!??!?!?! quebec?

$325 an extra per year? Really? that causes you to go on "strike" and protest. Still being lowest tuition in Canada?

I paid $600 / course on many courses, $325 a year is nothing in grand respects of what I saw in my 4 years of University with slight increases (and no riots...)

In fairness, the increase is actually $325 each year for five years. Ultimately the cost would rise by $1625 total after five years (since modified to a seven year schedule, iirc)

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

In fairness, the increase is actually $325 each year for five years. Ultimately the cost would rise by $1625 total after five years (since modified to a seven year schedule, iirc)

This will still leave them with the lowest priced tutiton in Canada.

Its interesting that the CBC was reporting yesterday that the professional programs (engineering, Buisness, Medicine etc) have had very little participation in the strike whereas in the general arts programs and social sciences have had significant partcicipation. And that it is around 33% of the students that are striking while 66% suffer through the disruptions.

To this seems like those students with a plan for what they are doing after graduation realize the strike is stupid. Those just going for educations sake or for the experience (ie: People we should not be subsidizing) are the ones striking.

Note: I am not saying that all people in social sciences or Arts are just going for educations sake. I am saying more people in these programs do not have direction and are going for the expericene or waiting to make up their minds. The ones that have a plan after university are the ones still in class.