Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centur

[moon]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Jun 9 2005, 12:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Jun 9 2005, 12:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-moon@Jun 9 2005, 07:33 PM
I have no problem with sweatshops either as long as people are not fored to work there then its fine by me.# If the work conditions and wages are so bad then don't work there.# If people think that working there is their best option then go ahead continue to work there.

What if that's their only option? What if it's work at the sweat-shop, or starve?

How can you not have a problem with these 'options'??? Do you honestly think these people are torn between whether to be a doctor, lawyer, or slave-wage labourer? Come on... options are for the wealthy (us). [/b][/quote]
I am sure for many that for many their option was work there or starve, but why is it my problem or some companies problem?


Is it better that the company does not go there at all? THen what are their options starve or starve?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by moon@Jun 9 2005, 07:33 PM
I have no problem with sweatshops either as long as people are not fored to work there then its fine by me. If the work conditions and wages are so bad then don't work there. If people think that working there is their best option then go ahead continue to work there.

Well then you should be against them.

Because people are forced to work there.

They are forced to work there because the choice is between starving and living as a slave labourer. Most humans will choose to live, even if they are being exploited.

[moon]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher+Jun 9 2005, 12:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flames Draft Watcher @ Jun 9 2005, 12:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-moon@Jun 9 2005, 07:33 PM
I have no problem with sweatshops either as long as people are not fored to work there then its fine by me.# If the work conditions and wages are so bad then don't work there.# If people think that working there is their best option then go ahead continue to work there.

Well then you should be against them.

Because people are forced to work there.

They are forced to work there because the choice is between starving and living as a slave labourer. Most humans will choose to live, even if they are being exploited. [/b][/quote]
They aren't forced.

They choose that over struggling to live/starve. Not a great choice but like I said if their only choice is to work there or starve then what is the choice if their is no sweatshop, starve or starve?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by moon+Jun 9 2005, 07:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (moon @ Jun 9 2005, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

What if that's their only option? What if it's work at the sweat-shop, or starve?

How can you not have a problem with these 'options'??? Do you honestly think these people are torn between whether to be a doctor, lawyer, or slave-wage labourer? Come on... options are for the wealthy (us).

I am sure for many that for many their option was work there or starve, but why is it my problem or some companies problem?


Is it better that the company does not go there at all? THen what are their options starve or starve? [/b][/quote]
Well it all comes to back to selfishness doesn't it. Why should it be the rich people's problem that the poor people are starving? Why not employ them as slaves to our corporations so they can at least scrape by? That's ideal isn't it?

I know we're propagandized to believe our system (capitalism) is good but take off the blinders man. If people are concerned about the good of humanity then we should be worried about sweatshops, about our current political and economic systems. If all you are concerned about is how good your own life is then feel free to tune it all out and hope you don't have to meet these starving people face to face at some point.

We have it good in capitalism because we're relatively in the upper eschelon. But that doesn't mean the system isn't flawed, because it is. And that doesn't mean we aren't exploiting the 3rd world, because we are.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by moon+Jun 9 2005, 07:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (moon @ Jun 9 2005, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Well then you should be against them.

Because people are forced to work there.

They are forced to work there because the choice is between starving and living as a slave labourer. Most humans will choose to live, even if they are being exploited.

They aren't forced.

They choose that over struggling to live/starve. Not a great choice but like I said if their only choice is to work there or starve then what is the choice if their is no sweatshop, starve or starve? [/b][/quote]
Well don't you think there are other choices? Where 80% of the world's wealth doesn't sit in an extremely small percentage of the world's population?

Shouldn't we be striving for EVERYBODY to have a decent life? Is that too much to ask?

[moon]

I think the rich and large corporations do plenty to help much of the worlds poor. Many rich people and large corporations do get rich off of the third world. Thats fine with me. I don't think I would want to run a sweatshop but understand why companies do and don't really have a huge problem with them doing it.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Flame Of Liberty+Jun 9 2005, 07:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flame Of Liberty @ Jun 9 2005, 07:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Well you already know I think you are. No need to ask rhetorical questions.

The idea of owning property and goods is selfish. The idea of exchanging goods and services is selfish. I'll give you this, but only if you give me this. The profit motive is selfish. Being motivated to do something strictly because it profits you. The legal definition of a corporation is to make the most money for it's shareholders at the expense of all other concerns, that's selfish.

You are out to lunch if you can't see the selfish motivation in all aspects of capitalistic theory and reality.

Thats a peculiar definition of selfishness. Self interest (looking for myself) is selfishness? I am not sure...

selfishness

n : stinginess resulting from a concern for your own welfare and a disregard of others

I think the "disregard of others" is the important part. I dont see how being a capitalist means that I have disregard for others. In fact, if I want to be filthy rich capitalist pig, I have to offer other people what they want. Otherwise I wont be successful on the market. [/b][/quote]
You don't have to offer people things they want. You can trick them into thinking they need the things you provide through advertising. Do we really need 80% of the things we buy? Of course not. Do our kids really need that latest toy to be fulfilled and happy or do we just buy it so they'll stop nagging us?

You could get them addicted to a harmful substance you provide (cigarettes for example.)

And of course as has been pointed out numerous times in this conversation, providing the things you make at the lowest possible cost usually means minimizing labour costs. Which is basically disregarding the interest of your workers. It's in their best interest to make good wages. It's in your best interest to have them making the worst wages they could make.

Don't you see the conflict?

If you can't see that being a capitalist pig is the exact definition of selfishness then you're blind.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by moon@Jun 9 2005, 07:50 PM
I think the rich and large corporations do plenty to help much of the worlds poor. Many rich people and large corporations do get rich off of the third world. Thats fine with me. I don't think I would want to run a sweatshop but understand why companies do and don't really have a huge problem with them doing it.

"I think the rich and large corporations do plenty to help much of the worlds poor."

Well, it sounds like you're brainwashed to me. I'd really like to see you prove that one with a multitude of case studies. That's what they'd like you to believe so you put up with the current system and keep them rich. They wouldn't want you questioning their labour practises, oh no.

You don't have a problem with companies exploiting 3rd world labour? You don't have a problem with the rich getting richer while the poor starve, don't have access to the things we consider basic rights? That's a pretty selfish view. But to each their own. If you wanna be a capitalist pig, that's your right in our country. And our propangada and society certainly encourages that sort of thinking a lot of the time.

[moon]

I must be brainwashed because I disagree with you on a topic that can have many different views?

Our society and propoganda encourages this type of thinking?

I don;t know why you seem to thinkt hat everyone that isn't against big corporations or supports capitalistic ideas must be brainwashed and that there is some huge society wide conspiracy to perpetuate this, but it sounds a little paranoid to me.

Of course there are influences in our society that promote capitalism, but not to the extent that I or others wouldn't be able to make up there own mind. I think I have enough education and have travelled enough to live in and see many different cultures and societies that I can make up my own mind on issues such as these.

If you think I am selfish then that is your opinion. I have no problem with the work and money I have given to help those that are less fortunate both in Canada and internationally.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher@Jun 9 2005, 12:57 PM

You don't have a problem with companies exploiting 3rd world labour? You don't have a problem with the rich getting richer while the poor starve, don't have access to the things we consider basic rights? That's a pretty selfish view. But to each their own. If you wanna be a capitalist pig, that's your right in our country. And our propangada and society certainly encourages that sort of thinking a lot of the time.

Yikes. And I thought I had a dim view of humanity.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by moon@Jun 9 2005, 08:01 PM
I must be brainwashed because I disagree with you on a topic that can have many different views?

No, because you believe corporations do "plenty" to help the world's poor.

As I said, please prove me wrong by providing some concrete case studies. I would love it if you could do that.

[moon]

I will. Just may take some time because I hadn't planned on getting into a large debate today.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by moon@Jun 9 2005, 08:01 PM
I don;t know why you seem to thinkt hat everyone that isn't against big corporations or supports capitalistic ideas must be brainwashed and that there is some huge society wide conspiracy to perpetuate this, but it sounds a little paranoid to me.

Well we live in a society based on capitalism. Why would those in charge (the rich elite) want anything to change? They don't. Therefore it's in their best interest to promote capitalism, restrict change and they have the resources to do so. It's not paranoid, it's not a conspiracy, it's all quite transparent IMO. Our education system encourages things like capitalism and democracy for the most part. And we are propagandized to believe that corporations might for some reason care about the environment or the 3rd world when in reality their legal mandate is to make the most money possible and this is usually at the expense of the environment and the 3rd world. Most systems do the same thing, they will try to keep their system in power, that's logical. It's the same in political systems as it is in economic systems. And of course worldwide capitalism benefits the rich countries the most. We are gaining by exploiting the 3rd world. That gives us a better quality of life. So to some extent it's not in our nature to give that up.

Why do I think people who believe firmly in capitalism are brainwashed? Because when confronted with the evidence of the problems it has caused, it doesn't make logical sense to defend it unless you're looking after your own self-interest. That's my opinion anyways. I tend to believe the good in humanity. I'm an optimist. I think most people would prefer that nobody starve, that everybody have access to clean water, food, shelter and health care. Those are some of the ideals that North Americans supposedly believe in strongly. That's why it doesn't make sense to me that people would promote a system that encourages disparity between rich and poor, that allows us to have a huge percentage of the population living without the things we consider basic human rights just because they weren't lucky enough to be born in our country.

[Incinerator]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher@Jun 9 2005, 07:46 PM


Shouldn't we be striving for EVERYBODY to have a decent life? Is that too much to ask?

I'll try not to sound like a heartless bas**rd here, but the ugly truth is that there will always be less fortunate people out there due to basic economics: scarcity of resources, there is simply not enough to go around in this world to afford every one of us 6 billion+ humans a decent life, so some less fortunate people will just have to deal with it, maybe they'll have better luck next life? There is only so much everyone else can do to help. The problem with communists and socialists is that they daydream all day about a perfect world.

Flame away.

[moon]

Here are some links to what companies are doing in a variety of communities, they came form the Government of Canada website, not sure if that is trustworhty enough for you but anyways:

http://www.shell.ca/code/values/soci...r_society.html

http://www.suncor.com/default.aspx?ID=3

http://www.placerdome.com/sustainability/social/

There are plenty more these are just a few companies and what they are doing to improve the regions that they are operating in and to show that they are giving back to the worlds communities. It may not be enough for what you want but don't act as though they aren't doing anything.

Many of the weathiest individuals in the world routinely give hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars to a variety of causes both publically and quite oftne privately as well. These acts are well known so I don;t think I need to document them but if I do I will search and find the reports of them doing so.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Incinerator@Jun 9 2005, 08:24 PM
I'll try not to sound like a heartless bas**rd here, but the ugly truth is that there will always be less fortunate people out there due to basic economics: scarcity of resources, there is simply not enough to go around in this world to afford every one of us 6 billion+ humans a decent life, so some less fortunate people will just have to deal with it, maybe they'll have better luck next life? There is only so much everyone else can do to help. The problem with communists and socialists is that they daydream all day about a perfect world.

I just can't believe that's true. Every day we see how wasteful our culture is, how it is a culture of excess. We don't just fill our needs, society manufactures new "wants" so that we will continue to consume new products.

There's easily enough resources for everyone on the planet to have a decent life. That's fact.

[Incinerator]

Originally posted by Flames Draft Watcher+Jun 9 2005, 08:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flames Draft Watcher @ Jun 9 2005, 08:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Incinerator@Jun 9 2005, 08:24 PM
I'll try not to sound like a heartless bas**rd here, but the ugly truth is that there will always be less fortunate people out there due to basic economics: scarcity of resources, there is simply not enough to go around in this world to afford every one of us 6 billion+ humans a decent life, so some less fortunate people will just have to deal with it, maybe they'll have better luck next life? There is only so much everyone else can do to help. The problem with communists and socialists is that they daydream all day about a perfect world.

I just can't believe that's true. Every day we see how wasteful our culture is, how it is a culture of excess. We don't just fill our needs, society manufactures new "wants" so that we will continue to consume new products.

There's easily enough resources for everyone on the planet to have a decent life. That's fact. [/b][/quote]
It's not a fact, it's your opinion. My opinion is that what you just said is a myth. I'll leave it at that.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by moon@Jun 9 2005, 08:28 PM
Here are some links to what companies are doing in a variety of communities, they came form the Government of Canada website, not sure if that is trustworhty enough for you but anyways:

http://www.shell.ca/code/values/soci...r_society.html

http://www.suncor.com/default.aspx?ID=3

http://www.placerdome.com/sustainability/social/

There are plenty more these are just a few companies and what they are doing to improve the regions that they are operating in and to show that they are giving back to the worlds communities. It may not be enough for what you want but don't act as though they aren't doing anything.

Many of the weathiest individuals in the world routinely give hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars to a variety of causes both publically and quite oftne privately as well. These acts are well known so I don;t think I need to document them but if I do I will search and find the reports of them doing so.

Well they've definitely improved over the past few decades. And that has typically been in response to a more vocal consumer base that has been asking questions like, "What are you doing for the environment?". But what they are doing is limited. It isn't enough for me. Their bottom line is that they still have to make the most money they can for their shareholders. Only the threat of boycotts and bad press has them doing anything at all.

Their goal is still to make the most money for their shareholders. They are legally obligated to do so. This is a selfish goal that doesn't take into account the best interests of humanity. We need to somehow change this. The current corporate system will exploit the environment and will exploit the third world. You can't deny it, it's happening all the time, all over the world. The case studies are endless.

Giving to charities is great. Helping the poor is great. But all that does is slightly offset the exploitation that currently exists. We need systemic change. We need to change how the world operates. We have to grow up at some point and realize we need to look after the best interest of humanity, not just ourselves. We need to work together at some point for the good of everyone, not just the good of ourselves.

Obviously it's a monumental task. And obviously the current systems in place will resist change. Some will say it's an impossible task, I don't think that's the case. And if we don't change things, I believe change will be forced upon us at some point. I don't think we can repress the majority of the world in poverty forever, at some point they are going to rise against that.

As US Senator Joe Biden said just recently when talking about foreign aid to Africa...

“If you don’t visit the bad neighborhood, it will visit you.”

[moon]

Well I have worked for a large oil company and directly with their involvement in Corporate Responsiblity and know that, there at least, the actions that they were taking were not solely for bottom line benefits but to also improve the communities they operated in. They often went above what was asked for and needed to comply with standards and regulations.

Also just because companies do things to support their bottom line that help the communities shouldn't negate what they did. Sure in many cases things may get done for the wrong reasons but I think it is more important that they get done then to worry about why.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Incinerator+Jun 9 2005, 08:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Incinerator @ Jun 9 2005, 08:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I just can't believe that's true. Every day we see how wasteful our culture is, how it is a culture of excess. We don't just fill our needs, society manufactures new "wants" so that we will continue to consume new products.

There's easily enough resources for everyone on the planet to have a decent life. That's fact.

It's not a fact, it's your opinion. My opinion is that what you just said is a myth. I'll leave it at that. [/b][/quote]
How can you believe it's a myth? And how can you leave it at that? This is probably the most fundamental issue in the world today. Providing food, water, shelter, etc for everyone on the planet.

Think of how much you need to live (food, water, shelter). Now think of how much extra you have that you don't NEED to live. Now think of all the rich countries and how many people live in them. Then think about all the poor countries and how much they have, how many people they have and how much they would need to be able to get water, food and shelter.

The average Canadian, American, Western European, etc makes easily over twice what they need to live if not much, much higher.

Saying that we don't have enough resources to feed, clothe and shelter everyone in the world, now that's the myth. And I can't believe anyone could believe it. What's your argument? How are you thinking that's possible?