Election's Canada investigating "Robocall" Guelph Riding (and other ridings).

[Smartcar]

Originally Posted by First Lady

It was a fake name used to register the cell phone that was purchased with cash. I'm pretty sure they would have used their real name and real credit card when dealing with Rack Nine---- and those are the records I'd presume have been turned over.

I'm pretty sure it would have been a fake name and prepaid credit card, or it would have been reported already. Whoever did this clearly knew what they were doing was illegal and covered their tracks. Disgusting.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Wrong Thread

[Regular_John]

Originally Posted by c.t.ner

It looks like Mike Sona (the Conservative staffer who resigned last week) is denying his involvement with the Robocall scandal.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02...s-involvement/

Couple of things that make this a rather odd admission.

1) He resigned last week really before the story broke. So it's odd that he would resign for something he didn't do, well before the real media frenzy kicked in.

2) It makes Peter MacKay's comments from earlier this week very odd. MacKay said:


Seams to be a lot of smoke building up around this issue.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out, if I were to put on my tin foil hat for a moment I'd say they threw little Mike Sona under the bus as soon as the story broke in the hopes that it would appear to just be one rouge employee in one office. But with reports of all the other ridings popping up 7 the official tone of the calls (french & english) it's looking less like "the intern did it" and more like a calculated effort.

[old-fart]

Really need to seperate out the various complaints though. The "robo-dialer trying to send us to the wrong polling station" is a very serious issue and needs to be looked at very closely and those responsible held accountable.

Having said that, the opposition party trying to lump things like "they called at dinner time" and "they said Doctor Carolyn Bennet" and "they called on the Sabbath" and "they had a fake accent" as part of some grand conspiracy is idiotic. I'd suggest all parties made calls to people during inconvenient times, and all call centers probably have people with different accents that some idiot thinks is being faked to annoy them.

[CaptainCrunch]

Yup it seems like the opposition is jumping all over this to an almost obsessive nature before the investigation jumps its course.

Bob Rae was on the other night trying to link the caller thing to the Conservatives while not linking it to the conservatives.

The smart move for the opposition would really be to let the investigation happen and then decide your strategy.

[Regular_John]

Originally Posted by old-fart

Really need to seperate out the various complaints though. The "robo-dialer trying to send us to the wrong polling station" is a very serious issue and needs to be looked at very closely and those responsible held accountable.

Having said that, the opposition party trying to lump things like "they called at dinner time" and "they said Doctor Carolyn Bennet" and "they called on the Sabbath" and "they had a fake accent" as part of some grand conspiracy is idiotic. I'd suggest all parties made calls to people during inconvenient times, and all call centers probably have people with different accents that some idiot thinks is being faked to annoy them.

Agreed, the official sounding "from elections Canada" in french & english calls are much more serious than the "let's make the other parties look bad by calling a 10:00pm" calls.

[c.t.ner]

Originally Posted by old-fart

Really need to seperate out the various complaints though. The "robo-dialer trying to send us to the wrong polling station" is a very serious issue and needs to be looked at very closely and those responsible held accountable.

Having said that, the opposition party trying to lump things like "they called at dinner time" and "they said Doctor Carolyn Bennet" and "they called on the Sabbath" and "they had a fake accent" as part of some grand conspiracy is idiotic. I'd suggest all parties made calls to people during inconvenient times, and all call centers probably have people with different accents that some idiot thinks is being faked to annoy them.

I agree that the most serious issue here is the calls that were made in the name of Elections Canada, which were deliberate attempts to disrupt voters.

But some of the other calls, where someone not associated with a campaign blatantly attempting to harass potential voters deserves consideration in the context of the whole conversation. It's a false pretense and if left unchecked sets a bad precedent for elections moving forward.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by c.t.ner

I agree that the most serious issue here is the calls that were made in the name of Elections Canada, which were deliberate attempts to disrupt voters.

But some of the other calls, where someone not associated with a campaign blatantly attempting to harass potential voters deserves consideration in the context of the whole conversation. It's a false pretense and if left unchecked sets a bad precedent for elections moving forward.

I think considering it at all just serves to distract from the serious offense here.

Calling someone during dinner time being considered in the same breath as a massive campaign of voter disinformation? That's like trying to convict a guy for murdering a store clerk but taking up the courts time to also try him for stealing a chocolate bar on the way out the door. At some point it really becomes irrelevant.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by old-fart

Really need to seperate out the various complaints though. The "robo-dialer trying to send us to the wrong polling station" is a very serious issue and needs to be looked at very closely and those responsible held accountable.

Having said that, the opposition party trying to lump things like "they called at dinner time" and "they said Doctor Carolyn Bennet" and "they called on the Sabbath" and "they had a fake accent" as part of some grand conspiracy is idiotic. I'd suggest all parties made calls to people during inconvenient times, and all call centers probably have people with different accents that some idiot thinks is being faked to annoy them.

Of course the most troubling issue is the alleged faked Elections Canada calls. I do think that there are issues with the alleged harassment calls though, and it runs deeper than is obvious.

If the calls were made to people in a targeted manner (that is to identified supporters of rival parties, as alleged), there is more at work here than just some rogue party worker or anything like that. Instead you have an obvious concerted effort where GOTV data was collected by the party for the election, and then released for this purpose. Could that be one person? Sure. If that took place though, it definitely calls a lot into question.

Obviously, if any party is harassing voters and doing their best to irritate them and misrepresent themselves as their opponents its at the very least trashy. It might not break the law (I'm no expert), but its a pathetic new low for Canadian politics if its the case.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yup it seems like the opposition is jumping all over this to an almost obsessive nature before the investigation jumps its course.

Bob Rae was on the other night trying to link the caller thing to the Conservatives while not linking it to the conservatives.

The smart move for the opposition would really be to let the investigation happen and then decide your strategy.

The opposition should jump all over this. If any party engaged in these activites I would expect nothing less of their rivals than to hammer them with it. There is no strategy required really; if a party acted in these ways then they should have to answer for that. Believe me, if the Liberals or NDP were implicated the attack ads would already be running!

[old-fart]

Originally Posted by c.t.ner

I agree that the most serious issue here is the calls that were made in the name of Elections Canada, which were deliberate attempts to disrupt voters.

But some of the other calls, where someone not associated with a campaign blatantly attempting to harass potential voters deserves consideration in the context of the whole conversation. It's a false pretense and if left unchecked sets a bad precedent for elections moving forward.

Totally agree with your second paragraph, but it is a different issue. Those types of calls are in the same vein as removing your opponents campaign material from the mailbox as you drop yours in, stealing or defacing campaign signs, and telling people that your opponent is a big meanie and smells funny - or worse posting your opponents divorce paperwork online. Dirty tricks sure, but every single party does them. Every. Single. One. For the opposition to suggest that people were called by someone identifying themselves as calling on behalf of the Conservative Party and they called at dinner and had a funny accent - ergo the Conseratives used dirty tricks to steal the election is beyond the pale.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by old-fart

Totally agree with your second paragraph, but it is a different issue. Those types of calls are in the same vein as removing your opponents campaign material from the mailbox as you drop yours in, stealing or defacing campaign signs, and telling people that your opponent is a big meanie and smells funny - or worse posting your opponents divorce paperwork online. Dirty tricks sure, but every single party does them. Every. Single. One. For the opposition to suggest that people were called by someone identifying themselves as calling on behalf of the Conservative Party and they called at dinner and had a funny accent - ergo the Conseratives used dirty tricks to steal the election is beyond the pale.

No, this is a different situation entirely. Not every party phones people and harasses them pretending to be someone else. Nice try though.

[Flamenspiel]

Ok, ok, now this has gone too far. A "new low" give me a break, at this point I don't see any evidence misuse of public funds or true corruption, even evidence of anything systemic.

How quickly the partisans on this thread forget about the sponsorship scandal where money was stolen from Canadians and people actually went to jail.

[c.t.ner]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I think considering it at all just serves to distract from the serious offense here.

Calling someone during dinner time being considered in the same breath as a massive campaign of voter disinformation? That's like trying to convict a guy for murdering a store clerk but taking up the courts time to also try him for stealing a chocolate bar on the way out the door. At some point it really becomes irrelevant.

I agree that there are various levels of seriousness in regards to all the Robocall claims that are surfacing. The voter suppression calls are clearly the most important and then there are various levels of issues with the other Robocalls.

But any allegation of impersonating members from a campaign and purposely making targeted calls to irritate campaign's voters or supporter is a serious claim that should also be investigated. Let's say for what ever reason the issues in Guelph are unrelated to the other Robocall allegation, I personally don't think those should be ignored. In the end it only goes to further belittle the whole campaign process.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Ok, ok, now this has gone too far. A "new low" give me a break, at this point I don't see any evidence misuse of public funds or true corruption, even evidence of anything systemic.

How quickly the partisans on this thread forget about the sponsorship scandal where money was stolen from Canadians and people actually went to jail.

I am a Conservative party supporter.

I think, depending on what really happened, that this potentially could be worse than the sponsorship scandal. You are right we don't see any evidence that would convict anyone of anything, but there is a lot of evidence that something happened, that could have potentially changed the results of the election (note: I don't think it did in this case). You can't surmise that nothing happened because people have not been convicted yet, the investigation has just started.

When the investigation is finished, you will likely see people in jail and a drastic shift in the way all parties approach phone calls of any type to voters.

[MarchHare]

How quickly the partisans on this thread forget about the sponsorship scandal where money was stolen from Canadians and people actually went to jail.

How quickly the partisans on this thread forget about the Pacific Scandal where a Conservative government was guilty of accepting bribes and the Prime Minister was forced to resign in disgrace.

[old-fart]

Originally Posted by Slava

No, this is a different situation entirely. Not every party phones people and harasses them pretending to be someone else. Nice try though.

The specific quotes I've seen have implied that the harassing phone calls (or alleged harassing phone calls) came from people identifying themselves as being with the Conservative Party. Now, there are one of three things going on here:

• The conservatives want to harass people and weren't smart enough to pretend to be someone else.
• Some other party wants to harass people and were smart enough to pretend to be someone else.
• Folks who don't support the conservatives are saying they are being harassed by completely normal calls during an election period, calls that all parties make and many folks receive.

Is there any evidence whatsoever that the conservatives specifically called people pretending to be someone other than the conservatives?

I have seen evidence that other parties removed campaign material from mailboxes, defaced signs, and posted personal divorce proceedings on the internet.... so yes it is fair to say all parties engage in "dirty tricks".

[GP_Matt]

I heard an interview with a Conservative staffer yesterday who tried to clear up some confusion. The calls in the Guelph riding were fraudulent and are being investigated.For the other ridings that are surfacing now a lot of them were legitimate calls from the conservative party to supporters to inform them that the polls truly had changed. Apparently Elections Canada changed about 200 voting station locations after the voter cards had gone out. As part of the Conservative get out the vote campaign they alerted their identified supporters of the change in location. Some of the articles are combining these two activities to make it seem like they are part of a large conspiracy when in fact one was a legitimate action taken by the Conservative party and the other was illegitimate and an investigation is trying to determine who is responsible.

[c.t.ner]

For those curious, here's a full list of the 57 ridings where allegations are taking place. Clearly the Guelph riding is the key one at the moment, but it's a concise list that shows all of the allegations and to what extent in each of the ridings.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02...ocall-ridings/

Some of the allegations are clearly heresay and I'd question the some of the ridings at the bottom where there isn't any information. Also there are some examples of less severe calls. Things like "The made nasty calls" and "Said I lived in Africa 6 months" of the year aren't as severe, but allegations of impersonating party X isn't something that should be ignored.

[MarchHare]

Here's the statement Harper should have released:

"Ensuring fair and impartial elections is the most important aspect of our democracy. This is not a Conservative or Liberal or NDP value, it is a universal Canadian value. My government does not condone or endorse any action that would attempt to deprive any Canadian citizen -- regardless of which party they support -- their right to legally participate in our democratic process. I personally would never support or approve any organized effort to trick voters into going to the wrong polling station. The PMO and the Conservative Party of Canada is prepared to offer Elections Canada and the RCMP our full and unconditional support in their investigations. Anyone found guilty of a criminal violation of the Elections Act should be punished to the full extent of the law. If the investigation determines that any Conservative MP knowingly approved or condoned these despicable actions at the local riding level, he or she will be expelled from our party's caucus and will not be permitted to run as a Conservative Party candidate again. If Elections Canada determines that any MPs were elected as a result of illegal activity, I will personally ask that member to resign and call a by-election in any ridings where the democratic process was deemed unfair. My office will issue no further statement on this issue until Elections Canada and the RCMP have concluded their investigations."

My respect for Harper would increase immensely if he released a statement like that instead of categorically denying everything before the investigation is even finished. I'm sure he personally is not guilty or any wrongdoing, but how can he be so sure there wasn't an organized effort going on in individual ridings without the knowledge or approval of the national campaign?

[zuluking]

I think the opposition is doing a disservice to the core issue (interference in the democratic process in the Guelph riding) by dragging the other petty complaints into it. If I were them, I'd be banging away at the robocall issue over and over and over. This is the one that could really unseat the government and, if it runs up the ranks of Conservatives, should absolutely unseat them.

Anecdotes about annoying calls will ultimately end up pointing fingers at all the parties and, for no reason, as that's just the reality of telephone spam. Do not fog the main issue as that is the real affront to democracy. Focus, dammit!