Toronto Raptors 2011/2012 Season

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Is this team too good for a decent chance at a top three pick?

I mean it's the Raptors right? In a year with a great number of very good players in the draft they beat up on the other crappy teams. Meanwhile the other sucky teams are losing, losing, losing. Washington hasn't won a single game yet.

Even in a year where they added nothing but stiffs to sit on the bench or to aid the tank they will could get out managed.

Casey might have been too good a hire LOL. Bargnani is playing like an allstar. Jose who sucked beyond belief for the last two years is suddenly back to canning jump shots.

Seems like all the other lottery teams are falling all over themselves looking for ways to lose. Meanwhile Raptors, though barely more talented, are outworking teams that are going through the motions.

A new culture of hard work is good. Jose and Bargnani increasing their trade value is good. Missing out on the talent available in this draft would be disastrous.

The saving grace is Casey is overplaying Bargnani and Jose bigtime. Jose especially, but that due to Bayless being out, is an injury waiting to happen. With DD and Davis both looking mediocre only Amir is providing any consistent play. So either one of AB or Jose goes down they will go on a Wizards like losing streak.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

I mean it's the Raptors right? In a year with a great number of very good players in the draft they beat up on the other crappy teams. Meanwhile the other sucky teams are losing, losing, losing. Washington hasn't won a single game yet.

Even in a year where they added nothing but stiffs to sit on the bench or to aid the tank they will could get out managed.

Casey might have been too good a hire LOL. Bargnani is playing like an allstar. Jose who sucked beyond belief for the last two years is suddenly back to canning jump shots.

Seems like all the other lottery teams are falling all over themselves looking for ways to lose. Meanwhile Raptors, though barely more talented, are outworking teams that are going through the motions.

A new culture of hard work is good. Jose and Bargnani increasing their trade value is good. Missing out on the talent available in this draft would be disastrous.

The saving grace is Casey is overplaying Bargnani and Jose bigtime. Jose especially, but that due to Bayless being out, is an injury waiting to happen. With DD and Davis both looking mediocre only Amir is providing any consistent play. So either one of AB or Jose goes down they will go on a Wizards like losing streak.

So you are hoping for an injury? A winning culture is FAR more important then getting a top 3 draft pick. The development of DeRozan and Davis is FAR more important then a top 3 draft pick.

The draft coming up is strong and deep, but that doesn't mean that there are any game changing superstars in it. We need to develop what we have and continue to add to it through whatever draft pick we get.

I would love to see Calderon continue to play extremely well and then have BC turn him into a draft pick where we can get a guy like Kendall Marshall. Add to that our own pick, which appears could be in the 5-15 range, and get a SF, say Kidd-Gilchrist, and we would be looking pretty decent. Especially when you consider that Jonas V will be coming over and we will have a lot of cap space.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

So you are hoping for an injury? A winning culture is FAR more important then getting a top 3 draft pick. The development of DeRozan and Davis is FAR more important then a top 3 draft pick.

The draft coming up is strong and deep, but that doesn't mean that there are any game changing superstars in it. We need to develop what we have and continue to add to it through whatever draft pick we get.

I would love to see Calderon continue to play extremely well and then have BC turn him into a draft pick where we can get a guy like Kendall Marshall. Add to that our own pick, which appears could be in the 5-15 range, and get a SF, say Kidd-Gilchrist, and we would be looking pretty decent. Especially when you consider that Jonas V will be coming over and we will have a lot of cap space.

A winning culture? At the very best they will be the best of the stiffs--that isn't a winning culture--it's as stupid as the Flames were in the young guns era finishing just out of the playoffs. Truly dumb.

The culture change needed was all about defense. They were the worst defensive team on the planet. That is the culture change that was so needed.

They aren't winning as in their talent rising to the challenge. They are outworking the other stiffs and Bargnani is all planet on offense so far.

DD and Davis being developed is most certainly not an either/or with gaining a high draft pick. Casey is trying very hard to work on both of them especially defensively. DD's game needs a ton of work in his own end. They can work on that all year and still finish right near the bottom.

They are being carried exclusively by the vets. Vets who are very likely not in their longterm plans. Winning games while overplaying these guys will lead to injuries--no need to hope for one. Natural outcome.

Davis's playing time is being limited by how much Bargnani is playing. Bayless isn't starting, when healthy, because Casey is going with Jose's hot hand.

DD isn't getting any fast breaks because Jose dribbles for 15 seconds to start the offense. Bayless pushes the pace.

Development/more top assets are far more important than winning some meaningless games. Bayless, Davis and DD should be out there as a threesome far more often than they are. Jose should be a bench player. Bargnani's minutes at the 4 should be cut so Davis can play more. Davis is not being developed sitting on the bench. DD relegated to a jump shooter is not being developed properly either. Bayless coming off the bench isn't being developed either.

Those 3 amongst others being developed and a top pick are hand in hand.

Playing the crap out of the two vets at their expense isn't doing anything but giving them an inferior pick.

Jose should be traded and so should Barbosa--that would mean less wins and more assets. This season has nothing to do with winning.

A win this season is the highest pick possible. A win this season is Jose and Barbosa long gone. A win this season is Bayless, DD and Davis with a ton of playing time regardless of how it affects the win/loss column.

A win this season is doing nothing that screws up having a chance to actually win meaningful games next year and especially the couple of years following that. Anything else is so short sighted it's truly Flames like in terms of pathetic management.

[St. Pats]

In other Raptors news Kleiza is a possible for Friday's game. He is apparently in Colorado for a last visit with the docs who did the work on him. With the way Butler and JJ have been black holes on offense his return could make them more watchable. Of course, as a true Raptor from the old ways, he is dang near incapable of defense. He does grab some boards though. Plus if he does play well then he is another tradeable asset.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

A winning culture? At the very best they will be the best of the stiffs--that isn't a winning culture--it's as stupid as the Flames were in the young guns era finishing just out of the playoffs. Truly dumb.

The culture change needed was all about defense. They were the worst defensive team on the planet. That is the culture change that was so needed.

They aren't winning as in their talent rising to the challenge. They are outworking the other stiffs and Bargnani is all planet on offense so far.

DD and Davis being developed is most certainly not an either/or with gaining a high draft pick. Casey is trying very hard to work on both of them especially defensively. DD's game needs a ton of work in his own end. They can work on that all year and still finish right near the bottom.

They are being carried exclusively by the vets. Vets who are very likely not in their longterm plans. Winning games while overplaying these guys will lead to injuries--no need to hope for one. Natural outcome.

Davis's playing time is being limited by how much Bargnani is playing. Bayless isn't starting, when healthy, because Casey is going with Jose's hot hand.

DD isn't getting any fast breaks because Jose dribbles for 15 seconds to start the offense. Bayless pushes the pace.

Development/more top assets are far more important than winning some meaningless games. Bayless, Davis and DD should be out there as a threesome far more often than they are. Jose should be a bench player. Bargnani's minutes at the 4 should be cut so Davis can play more. Davis is not being developed sitting on the bench. DD relegated to a jump shooter is not being developed properly either. Bayless coming off the bench isn't being developed either.

Those 3 amongst others being developed and a top pick are hand in hand.

Playing the crap out of the two vets at their expense isn't doing anything but giving them an inferior pick.

Jose should be traded and so should Barbosa--that would mean less wins and more assets. This season has nothing to do with winning.

A win this season is the highest pick possible. A win this season is Jose and Barbosa long gone. A win this season is Bayless, DD and Davis with a ton of playing time regardless of how it affects the win/loss column.

A win this season is doing nothing that screws up having a chance to actually win meaningful games next year and especially the couple of years following that. Anything else is so short sighted it's truly Flames like in terms of pathetic management.

It is important that they players show up every day knowing that they have a chance to win. If we got rid of or slashed the minutes of Calderon and Bargnani, and handed them all to Davis and Bayless then we would get blown out by 40 every night, kind of like last year. Another whole season of that will kill any trade value the players have and stunt their growth.

Bayless and Davis have been awful this year. They shouldn't just get handed minutes, they should be earning them. Not only that, but the only guy who is getting minutes that is likely not in the long term plans is Calderon. Everyone else is young, so I have no clue who you are referring to when you talk about all those vets chewing up minutes.

The culture that Casey is building is about being a good teammate, and he rewards those who do what he asks by giving them more minutes. Do you think Casey could get his message through to the team if he gave the minutes to guys who are playing like crap over Bargnani and Calderon who are playing extremely well?

If Casey can get Bayless and Davis to give him 20 quality minutes a game by the end of the year it will be a lot better for their development then having them play 30 crap minutes, which seems to be what you are after.

[St. Pats]

I'm after what is best for the Raptors long term. Jose and Bargnani on the floor till they drop is not. Davis riding the pine so Bargnani can help win games they don't need to win isn't good either. Davis is not playing well offensively but it won't get better on the bench. Davis is a guy who very few plays are set for as he works best off penetration. But Jose is allergic to the paint.

Bayless is either the future or he ain't. Not going to find out if he is playing backup minutes.

DD working exclusively in a half court set that does not suit his strengths( he has no handle whatsoever) isn't aiding his development no matter how many minutes he plays with dribble all day Calderon.

Bayless works hard, so does DD and so very much so does Davis. Thus defensively Casey can mold them. But yes the offense won't function as well because Bayless will turn the ball over far more than Jose. But he will also create opportunities for DD and Davis. Bayless is also an inconsistent chucker so again Jose this year is the better option if the goal is NOT development.

If going forward the lineup is Bayless, DD, Barnes(perhaps), Davis and JV then you give Bayless, DD and Davis minutes together.

Earn minutes? Based on what? The young guys are all very hard workers. So based on what--whether their shats go in the hoop? If they are going out there and hustling and giving it their best effort and the real goal is development then you not only reward them with more minutes but tailor the offense to suit them.
Again it's all extremely short sighted to base playing time on whether they are hot offensively.

Frankly with Casey as a new coach and BC on his last legs as GM I'm thinking they are trying to win as many games as possible even if it does not help them future wise. Casey I get as that is his job. BC, however, who has already stated that the goal is to setup for next year with JV and a high pick should get busy and remove the obstacles to that goal.

He should flip Calderon and Barbosa and then Kleiza(if he can show enough to be tradeable) and get on with development.

[The Big Chill]

Bayless needs to learn to be a better PG. He needs to earn minutes by playing smart basketball on both ends of the floor. I really don't think that playing a whole bunch of minutes the same way he has played last season and the first 3 games of this season will make him better. Watching Calderon, learning from Casey, and playing 15-20 quality minutes will make him better (if he has it in him). We know he can score and push the tempo, but he needs to be a better distributor if he wants to be a starting PG in this league.

Same goes for Davis at the PF spot. Watch, learn, play quality minutes.

I would rather see the young guys develop with back-up minutes while we hover around .500 for now, then closer to the deadline trade guys Calderon, Barbosa etc. once their value is higher. We will still eventually end up with a draft pick in the single digits, and we may be able to add more picks by trading others.

Also, if we trade all the vets now then we will end up playing the young guys to the point of injury as well. We need bodies for the season.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

Bayless needs to learn to be a better PG. He needs to earn minutes by playing smart basketball on both ends of the floor. I really don't think that playing a whole bunch of minutes the same way he has played last season and the first 3 games of this season will make him better. Watching Calderon, learning from Casey, and playing 15-20 quality minutes will make him better (if he has it in him). We know he can score and push the tempo, but he needs to be a better distributor if he wants to be a starting PG in this league.

Same goes for Davis at the PF spot. Watch, learn, play quality minutes.

I would rather see the young guys develop with back-up minutes while we hover around .500 for now, then closer to the deadline trade guys Calderon, Barbosa etc. once their value is higher. We will still eventually end up with a draft pick in the single digits, and we may be able to add more picks by trading others.

Also, if we trade all the vets now then we will end up playing the young guys to the point of injury as well. We need bodies for the season.

Picking up bodies is as easy as one telephone call. Plenty of useless vets sitting at home. D-league types can be picked up anytime. Kleiza will be in the lineup soon. Alabi can be called back up.

Just like the Flames, I would trade the vets whenever a good deal comes up. If they have to wait till the deadline then so be it.
If Bayless is going to learn by sitting on the bench it won't be by watching Calderon. He won't go near the paint, he dribbles way too much and basically the pick and roll is all he does. Yes he is very efficient but when you don't do anything that isn't exactly a glowing endorsement. When he makes his jumpers then he is that 2nd/3rd scorer. Other than that geez he should not be copied in anyway. Note I didn't mention his defense--that is too scary a topic.

Davis ain't going to learn much from watching Bargnani either. He has virtually none of the skill set AB has. Nor the height, reach etc. He might as well play backup center and watch Amir. He plays a game much more like him anyway. Though he would get owned as the rumours about him bulking up are so obviously false.

Personally, I think, as soon as Bayless gets back and has a few games under his belt they are going to see if he can get it done. Otherwise the vet trades could be to go after a PG. Surely they will use the high pick on a SF so they need to get a PG with either a trade or as a free agent.

To get Davis and DD going they need a guard who will take the ball inside and then distribute. Nothing like what Calderon does. Not even remotely. If Bayless ain't the answer then they need to trade for one because Calderon should be a bench player.

[octothorp]

If we're talking about PG styles, I think the most important thing is to continue to have a pick-and-roll PG -- something Calderon is good but not outstanding at. Amir can run the pick-and-roll, Bargnani can run it, Valanciunas is at his best running it. Casey has a lot of familiarity with it in Dallas, where both Barea and Kidd would run it with Nowitzki (although Nowitzki never ran it better than when he was with Nash).

I have no faith that Bayless will ever be able to run the pick-and-roll. Once he starts to drive, he gets tunnel vision, despite playing with some very capable finishers. The few times that he does pass, it often ends up a turnover, or at best a broken play.

Apart from Deron Williams (and even though it's extremely unlikely Colangelo should at least make an inquiry to see if there's interest), the league is short on young free agent PGs with that skillset. Trades are a possibility, but I don't see them picking up anything better than a guy of the calibre of Felton or Augustine. Those guys aren't really an upgrade on Calderon in any respect other than being younger.

Kabongo apparently runs it quite well, but I don't think he's going to be capable of starting next year. My strategy of choice would still be to move assets (Davis, Barbosa, Bayless, any SF, future draft pick) to get another mid-to-late first rounder, draft Kabongo, give him a year under Calderon before promoting him. If it takes moving Calderon to get him then that would be okay, but not ideal.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by octothorp

If we're talking about PG styles, I think the most important thing is to continue to have a pick-and-roll PG -- something Calderon is good but not outstanding at. Amir can run the pick-and-roll, Bargnani can run it, Valanciunas is at his best running it. Casey has a lot of familiarity with it in Dallas, where both Barea and Kidd would run it with Nowitzki (although Nowitzki never ran it better than when he was with Nash).

I have no faith that Bayless will ever be able to run the pick-and-roll. Once he starts to drive, he gets tunnel vision, despite playing with some very capable finishers. The few times that he does pass, it often ends up a turnover, or at best a broken play.

Apart from Deron Williams (and even though it's extremely unlikely Colangelo should at least make an inquiry to see if there's interest), the league is short on young free agent PGs with that skillset. Trades are a possibility, but I don't see them picking up anything better than a guy of the calibre of Felton or Augustine. Those guys aren't really an upgrade on Calderon in any respect other than being younger.

Kabongo apparently runs it quite well, but I don't think he's going to be capable of starting next year. My strategy of choice would still be to move assets (Davis, Barbosa, Bayless, any SF, future draft pick) to get another mid-to-late first rounder, draft Kabongo, give him a year under Calderon before promoting him. If it takes moving Calderon to get him then that would be okay, but not ideal.

Nash's contract is up this year. Been a ton of talk about him finishing his career with the Raptors. A Nash/Kabongo tandem would be ideal. Nash has plenty of game left and can run any play and penetrate the paint at will. Kabongo couldn't have a better mentor.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

Nash's contract is up this year. Been a ton of talk about him finishing his career with the Raptors. A Nash/Kabongo tandem would be ideal. Nash has plenty of game left and can run any play and penetrate the paint at will. Kabongo couldn't have a better mentor.

Yeah, I would love that if it happened. I'm just not sold on the talk about him finishing his career with the Raptors being anything more than wishful thinking. I actually think Phoenix would love to do the same thing: draft Kabongo and then keep Nash as his mentor for a year or two.

I wonder if Phoenix would go for something like a sign-and-traded Nash and their mid-first draft pick for Ed Davis, Bayless, and a lottery-protected 2013 first-rounder. Probably not enough there unless they were sure that Nash wasn't going to resign.

There's also the possibility that Nash would rather finish his career on a contender rather than as a mentor on a rebuilding club. As much as it would pain me to see it, he would look amazing on the Heat or Lakers.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Yeah, I would love that if it happened. I'm just not sold on the talk about him finishing his career with the Raptors being anything more than wishful thinking. I actually think Phoenix would love to do the same thing: draft Kabongo and then keep Nash as his mentor for a year or two.

I wonder if Phoenix would go for something like a sign-and-traded Nash and their mid-first draft pick for Ed Davis, Bayless, and a lottery-protected 2013 first-rounder. Probably not enough there unless they were sure that Nash wasn't going to resign.

There's also the possibility that Nash would rather finish his career on a contender rather than as a mentor on a rebuilding club. As much as it would pain me to see it, he would look amazing on the Heat or Lakers.

Both could happen. Phoenix deals him to a contender when the realize he isn't resigning with them. Raps pick him up in the summer. A shot at the Championship and then on home to finish it off.

[St. Pats]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...izards-raptors

Saw this link on another site--very funny read. Winless vrs hopeless and the bit on the Raptors injury report--No help on the way. Going to have to visit this site for a read now and then.

[St. Pats]

And presto just as could be expected by the heavy overdoing of the minutes Bargnani is injured. Nothing major apparently--just a strained calf muscle if the early report is true.

Man they were hopeless(perfect for the tank) tonight. Washington and Sacramento back to back and loss, loss. Hilarious is they continue to give up far fewer points but now can't score. Bonus tonight was Davis got some burn and will so for any length of time AB is injured. Kleiza played and looked alright as in recovered from his injury.

Man with Bargnani out they will have trouble breaking 60 on the scoreboard.

[octothorp]

Yup, injuries are really going to mount for everyone this year. Too bad for Bargnani, as it was really impressive how he was working so hard on the boards despite having no legs on his jumper. Last year, if his shot wasn't going down or he stopped getting the ball, he did nothing. Still, I hope he misses a few games.

Davis, Barbosa, and Kleiza were all bright spots.

On the other side, man Cousins is beast. If he keeps his head straight, he could be like Amar'e.

[St. Pats]

No Bargnani tonight but not really a factor. Pacers would have beat them regardless. Raptors and their fans, I think, are about to enter an unwatchable part of the season where it could get downright ugly. 3 in a row on the road and 11 of the next 14.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

No Bargnani tonight but not really a factor. Pacers would have beat them regardless. Raptors and their fans, I think, are about to enter an unwatchable part of the season where it could get downright ugly. 3 in a row on the road and 11 of the next 14.

Yeah, not to mention Atlanta twice, Boston twice, Miami, Chicago, Clippers, Portland, Utah, Denver and Phoenix all come up in the next 14. It wouldn't be shocking to me if the Raptors go winless through the rest of January. Maybe they get one or two upset victories somewhere along the way.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Yeah, not to mention Atlanta twice, Boston twice, Miami, Chicago, Clippers, Portland, Utah, Denver and Phoenix all come up in the next 14. It wouldn't be shocking to me if the Raptors go winless through the rest of January. Maybe they get one or two upset victories somewhere along the way.

Ya it is quite possible, and maybe even likely that we get 1 or even no wins over the next 9. Especially if Bargs misses the road trip. Supposedly he is day-to-day though.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

Ya it is quite possible, and maybe even likely that we get 1 or even no wins over the next 9. Especially if Bargs misses the road trip. Supposedly he is day-to-day though.

Bayless has been day to day for over two weeks and rumour is he is at least a week away still.

[vennegoor of hesselink]

This pretty much encapsulates the entire Toronto Raptors franchise doesn't it?