More 'tolerance' CPC style

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Faid1+May 23 2005, 05:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Faid1 @ May 23 2005, 05:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RougeUnderoos@May 23 2005, 03:50 PM
She didn't like Jap though, I know that.

So she doesn't understand why Nip is offensive but doesn't like "Jap".

[/b][/quote]
Yes.

Would you be offended if someone called you a "Can"? Like I said, that's how she saw it. She'd never even heard the term growing up in Japan so I guess it was hard for her to be offended by something so obviously dumb.

"Jap", though, she knew that and she knew it was meant as a racist insult and therefore would have had a problem with it.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@May 23 2005, 03:16 PM

If people here believe the use of the term 'Jap' is, in any way, justified by the actions of the Japanese in WWII... get over it. You (probably) weren't even alive then. Neither were most 'Japs'. Lots of people have done lots of bad things. History is NO justification for racism. Period. To even attempt to bring 60 year old atrocities into justifying derogatory slurs is ignorant. If that's 'liberal' then paint me red (blech).

Not saying he was right or justified, but he called the people that committed the autrocities bas**rds. he wasn't refering to the general Japanese population, and I think you realize that.

I have heard him talk before and he actually seems like a good guy (the one who used the slur), and I don't want to pass judgement on him to quick. I am sure that everyone has said something that they are not proud of, and would take back in an instant if they could. I don't think he is a racist, he just made a very stupid mistake when he chose his words. It doesn't make anything right, but at the same time I don't think he is a racist because he called the people who ran the POW camps "jap bas**rds". I think a lot more is needed in order to consider someone a racist, or else it is possible to devalue the title of racist so the weight behind it is minimized.

But is it really a racial insult, or an insult towards a nation, I think that is a good question which hasn't been brought up. I realize that it is a sensitive issue, but is insulting the population of a nation and the words used to do so really racist? I don't know if that makes sense, but that is just a question that I have. Rude yes, but I always thought that the term Jap was used to describe the Japanese, and not the asian population, which would be considered a race. Am I entirely off base on this?

[FlamesAddiction]

I used to have a Spiderman comic from the 80s where at one part a ninja is jumping at Spiderman.

Spiderman quipped; "There seems to be a little "nip" in the air tonight".

I kid you not. I guess today that would not be acceptable though.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+May 24 2005, 12:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ May 24 2005, 12:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

So she doesn't understand why Nip is offensive but doesn't like "Jap".

Yes.

Would you be offended if someone called you a "Can"? Like I said, that's how she saw it. She'd never even heard the term growing up in Japan so I guess it was hard for her to be offended by something so obviously dumb.

"Jap", though, she knew that and she knew it was meant as a racist insult and therefore would have had a problem with it. [/b][/quote]
Sorry I don't get this at all.

But using your Can-Canada analogy, that seriously sounds exactly like a Jap-Japan argument. I just don't understand how Nip is more like Can than Jap is.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+May 23 2005, 06:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ May 23 2005, 06:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Yes.

Would you be offended if someone called you a "Can"? Like I said, that's how she saw it. She'd never even heard the term growing up in Japan so I guess it was hard for her to be offended by something so obviously dumb.

"Jap", though, she knew that and she knew it was meant as a racist insult and therefore would have had a problem with it.

Sorry I don't get this at all.

But using your Can-Canada analogy, that seriously sounds exactly like a Jap-Japan argument. I just don't understand how Nip is more like Can than Jap is. [/b][/quote]
They call it Nippon.

I'm not an expert in what Japanese people do and do not think is racist, I was just passing on what one Japanese person told me, and what she told me is that the word "Nip" doesn't offend her because she had never heard of it.

"Jap" is a racist insult no matter where it comes from or what my ex-girlfriend thinks of the word "Nip".

[calgaryred]

You guys can talk about racism and the remarks made on the Japanese I had a hard time reading the article cause I KEPT LOOKING AT THAT GUYS NECK WHERE IS IT!!!!!!!

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by calgaryred@May 24 2005, 12:59 AM
You guys can talk about racism and the remarks made on the Japanese I had a hard time reading the article cause I KEPT LOOKING AT THAT GUYS NECK WHERE IS IT!!!!!!!

What a lovely thing to say about a quadriplegic.

[MarchHare]

Sorry I don't get this at all.

But using your Can-Canada analogy, that seriously sounds exactly like a Jap-Japan argument. I just don't understand how Nip is more like Can than Jap is.

Words alone are not offensive, but rather it's how they are used. If there was a history of people using "Can" in a disparaging way, then we would be outraged if a politician from another country called us that. But there isn't a history of Can being a racial slur; the same cannot be said for the word "Jap".

It's a racist term, pure and simple, and it's absolutely boggling that some of you are trying to dismiss it as something harmless.

[Resolute 14]

Much like dismissing rampant corruption as "to be expected"?

Actually, I find this all rather interesting. I think the biggest disconnect here is that not everyone has the same understanding of various words and their connotations. I certantly agree that the word "Jap" is a racial ephitet, specifically for the reason you mention - it was once used as a derogatory term to describe the enemy. I suppose a visual parallel would be the swastika, which was completely corrupted by the Nazi's, and it's meaning was changed forever.

However, an individual's reaction to such words will be colored by their experiences. Logically, "Jap" should be no different than "Can" to describe a Canadian, but unless you have experienced first hand the usage of such a word, you probably dont really understand it's hidden meaning.

Hell, I remember a fight I had with someone on here before who was very offended at my usage of the word "indian" to describe native americans. For him, it was a serious offense, but the common usage here, where the reserves are even described as the "so and so Indian Reserve", the meaning such a word conveys was different for him than it was for me.

Also, I wouldnt hold the use of the word "Jap" against a person who experienced - personally, or second hand through the tales of a loved one - the kind of torture the "Japs" subjected our soldiers to. While we and (hopefully) our immediate families are fortunate to have never endured such treatment ourselves, I would think a person with such experience would not think too kindly of the perpetrators of such.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 23 2005, 10:01 PM
Much like dismissing rampant corruption as "to be expected"?

Actually, I find this all rather interesting. I think the biggest disconnect here is that not everyone has the same understanding of various words and their connotations. I certantly agree that the word "Jap" is a racial ephitet, specifically for the reason you mention - it was once used as a derogatory term to describe the enemy. I suppose a visual parallel would be the swastika, which was completely corrupted by the Nazi's, and it's meaning was changed forever.

However, an individual's reaction to such words will be colored by their experiences. Logically, "Jap" should be no different than "Can" to describe a Canadian, but unless you have experienced first hand the usage of such a word, you probably dont really understand it's hidden meaning.

Hell, I remember a fight I had with someone on here before who was very offended at my usage of the word "indian" to describe native americans. For him, it was a serious offense, but the common usage here, where the reserves are even described as the "so and so Indian Reserve", the meaning such a word conveys was different for him than it was for me.

Also, I wouldnt hold the use of the word "Jap" against a person who experienced - personally, or second hand through the tales of a loved one - the kind of torture the "Japs" subjected our soldiers to. While we and (hopefully) our immediate families are fortunate to have never endured such treatment ourselves, I would think a person with such experience would not think too kindly of the perpetrators of such.

The swastika is just a symbol and it can't be offended or the victim of racism any more than a question mark can be.

I haven't experienced first-hand usage of the word Jap but I know what it means and it is racism. Anyone with half a brain should know what it means. Anyone who holds political office should definitely know what it means.

What this guy's grandpa went through is not an excuse. Millions of Canadians are related to victims of that war. We wouldn't accept a politician saying "the stinking krauts killed my Grandpa" or "my uncle was killed by a wop". It's okay though to say it about Japanese people? I don't think so.

He couldn't have said "those Japanese soldiers were bas**rds"? What's wrong with that? Did he have to use the charged word "Japs" to get his point across? I guess he thought he did. Pretty stupid thing to do IMO and just another in a long line of easily avoidable mistakes.

I wonder if Harper has ever said in a caucus meeting "don't say anything that sounds remotely racist to a reporter". He really should bring it up if he hasn't.

[WCE]

It really is a clash of two very different worlds.

There are those who wish to cling to traditional ways and do away with political correctness, and those who wish to be progressive and eliminate environments which promote racism.

Calling them "japs" IMO promotes racism...And I guess I fall into the category of people who wish to do away with things which promote racism, even if it means flogging the PC horse.

I know that you can never please everybody, but c'mon folks, can't we all just get along as human beings? We are all in the brotherhood of mankind.

Past transgressions, slurs, traditions and any other idiom doesn't change that.

In my mind, if something is that offensive to people it's probably not a good idea to use it. At the same time I can understand the confusion surrounding the meaning of praticular words.

And yes Rouge...I too have often wondered if Harper has ever called a meeting on the subject. "Hey guys...you know how half the country is scared of voting for us because of all that talk about being close-minded, and too far right on the political spectrum??/...Well it would certainly help to eliminate those fears if we didn't make statements every couple of months to validate their concerns"

[Resolute 14]

Good lord... you are dense Rouge.

"The swastika can't be offended or the victim of racism"?

What the hell does that mean?

The word "Jap" can't be offended either. It's only letters. So I guess it is okay, right?

If you are going to be a contarian, at least come up with a logical argument.

[Rubber Ducky]

I live in Japan, and my girlfriend is Japanese.

If someone said to me 'Oh, your girlfriend is a Jap', I would be severely p*ssed off.

Sadly, she might not even know why I was so ticked off.

My 2 cents.

[Flame On]

Originally posted by Rubber Ducky@May 24 2005, 06:52 AM
I live in Japan, and my girlfriend is Japanese.

If someone said to me 'Oh, your girlfriend is a Jap', I would be severely p*ssed off.

Sadly, she might not even know why I was so ticked off.

My 2 cents.

Well there we have it from the horses mouth. So we can now all agree that to those whom it directly refers to it is offensive and therefore should not be used and as such can accept the MP's appology for having done so. Further, we can expect the Cons not to be envolved in anything like this again, because they've learnt their lesson, they've appologised and we can all move on......

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

I think you have it mixed up, the Japanese individual in the example would't understand the insult, while the outsider (I assume that Rubber Ducky isn't Japanese) would have found it offensive. I think that this from the horses mouth isn't exactly what you are trying to get across.

But can someone explain what I asked before, how is it racist instead of derogitory towards a nation. Unless the Japanese are a race, but I have never heard that to be the case.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 24 2005, 07:19 AM
Good lord... you are dense Rouge.

"The swastika can't be offended or the victim of racism"?

What the hell does that mean?

The word "Jap" can't be offended either. It's only letters. So I guess it is okay, right?

If you are going to be a contarian, at least come up with a logical argument.

Laugh. Maybe you'll have to explain your "visual parralel" a little better for the thick ones like me in the crowd. Are you suggesting that what this guy said was the equivalent of waving a flag with a swastika on it? It's really hard for dense people to understand what you are getting at.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@May 25 2005, 12:44 AM
I think you have it mixed up, the Japanese individual in the example would't understand the insult, while the outsider (I assume that Rubber Ducky isn't Japanese) would have found it offensive. I think that this from the horses mouth isn't exactly what you are trying to get across.

But can someone explain what I asked before, how is it racist instead of derogitory towards a nation. Unless the Japanese are a race, but I have never heard that to be the case.

Am I completely ignored here? By the likes of MMM even? JHChrist....Can anyone at least reference my posts and point out what Rouge and others are saying. Japs is ignorant. It's a race label tag like chinks, ####s or any other. Let's not get into it - acceptance and moving on is what's needed here not rampant justification. If you need help, let my wife or any of her friends (still quite a few in Calgary) come over and bash you over the head if you are looking for boundaries to pursue in your desire to redefine what racist comments are all about . There is no argument so give it up.

[TheCommodoreAfro]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@May 24 2005, 01:01 PM
Much like dismissing rampant corruption as "to be expected"?

Actually, I find this all rather interesting. I think the biggest disconnect here is that not everyone has the same understanding of various words and their connotations. I certantly agree that the word "Jap" is a racial ephitet, specifically for the reason you mention - it was once used as a derogatory term to describe the enemy. I suppose a visual parallel would be the swastika, which was completely corrupted by the Nazi's, and it's meaning was changed forever.

However, an individual's reaction to such words will be colored by their experiences. Logically, "Jap" should be no different than "Can" to describe a Canadian, but unless you have experienced first hand the usage of such a word, you probably dont really understand it's hidden meaning.

Hell, I remember a fight I had with someone on here before who was very offended at my usage of the word "indian" to describe native americans. For him, it was a serious offense, but the common usage here, where the reserves are even described as the "so and so Indian Reserve", the meaning such a word conveys was different for him than it was for me.

Also, I wouldnt hold the use of the word "Jap" against a person who experienced - personally, or second hand through the tales of a loved one - the kind of torture the "Japs" subjected our soldiers to. While we and (hopefully) our immediate families are fortunate to have never endured such treatment ourselves, I would think a person with such experience would not think too kindly of the perpetrators of such.

The difference here is that Nazi doesn't refer to a race, but a perverted Hindu symbol gone wrong and worshiped by some motherfatas who had a certain style of thought some time ago. Japs, on the otherhand, means all of those who are Japanese preceeded by a swear word. If you can't grasp it's nastiness, then you should find out why those who think it's bad think that way before making such simple statements.

[Resolute 14]

Actually, I was generalizing. I stated that otherwise innocent things (like words) can take on a much more sinister meaning when they become used as a derogatory statement, like the word "Jap" was. I mentioned the swastika as a more tangable example of this.

To add to my original point, we all know what the Swastika now means, and what it represents, as we have all been taught what it was used for. Part of our lifetime experience does (or should) include being taught in history classes what happened in WWII, and what the Swastika came to represent. However, I would suggest that the same is not true for certian words, such as Jap, so there are people who dont fully understand the negative connotation of the word.

Nobody is born with racist or bigoted opinions or feelings. Those grow out of our experiences and our teachers. I find it interesting that people are getting on certian people's cases because they were not taught that the word is considered a racial slur. In an ideal world, everyone would share that ignorance, because if nobody believed the word is "evil", it would lose it's meaning.

[Resolute 14]

Afro - I am aware of that. Like I have said, I was using the swastika to explain how something otherwise innocent can be changed to have evil meaning. Words are just words. The swastika is just a bunch of right angles. It is the meaning we attach to these words and symbols that give them their power, and make them a tool of hate or evil.

A person without knowledge of the history wont see anything inherently evil in a bunch of right angles or the shortening of a nations/people's name.

Other than my last paragraph that you quoted, everything I said was meant to be in general. The entire post was a simple observation on the differing mindsets of people, and how their experiences shape their understanding of the world around them.