Police critically man at Occupy Oakland-update;police ask youtube to remove videos

[Yasa]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Thats what I was trying to get at, however I go back to the point of did the cop really see the body lying there, the video shows that it was uttely chaotic there, and how did they interpret the mob rushing towards the police line where the guy was lying.

I find it kinda hard to think that the cop missed the guy lying there. His view wasn't particularly obstructed. Then a crowd gathers, with none of them advancing towards the line of officers. They had their backs to the cops.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by RedJester

Although it's being narrated by one of the protesters, it elaborates on the incident at about the 0:45 second mark.

Not sure how that proves he "wasn't doing anything" (narrators claim), as standing in front of a riot line while tear gas is being thrown both ways is provocative in itself. He's no better than those idiots here in Vancouver and no one should be surprised someone got hurt. Everybody laughs at the Vancouver rioter getting hit in the nards with a tear gas canister, but when it hits the face everyone screams outrage.

And the flash bang? meh. The point was crowd dispersal. You don't need 25 unemployed idiots standing around yelling "what's your name dude?!!" to drag an injured person to safety.

[RedJester]

Riots aren't the same thing as protests, and getting hit in the nards and walking away is different than getting hit in the head and getting hauled off in an ambulance as your brain swells.

Apples and oranges.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by RedJester

Riots aren't the same thing as protests, and getting hit in the nards and walking away is different than getting hit in the head and getting hauled off in an ambulance as your brain swells.

Apples and oranges.

At what point does the protest become a riot? There are police in RIOT gear, in a line, throwing TEAR GAS and FLASH BANGS. Plus you have those cliche guys that show up at every riot in black hoodies and masks.

Yes, head =/ testicle. The point is that you have enough people standing in the line of fire while tear gas canisters are raining down, its only a matter of time before it hits a less humerous body part. Different public reaction, but same probability.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

At what point does the protest become a riot? There are police in RIOT gear, in a line, throwing TEAR GAS and FLASH BANGS. Plus you have those cliche guys that show up at every riot in black hoodies and masks.

Yes, head =/ testicle. The point is that you have enough people standing in the line of fire while tear gas canisters are raining down, its only a matter of time before it hits a less humerous body part. Different public reaction, but same probability.

It wouldn't be the first time that the police turned a peaceful demonstration into a riot.

Anybody here remember that thread where plainclothes police in Montreal went around trying to incite a riot among peaceful demonstrators?

[RedJester]

-No vandalism.
-No looting.
-No arson.
-Not a riot.

Showing up to a Halloween party naked doesn't make it a swingers party. Showing up to a protest in riot gear because the mayor labelled it an unlawful assembly doesn't make it a riot, either. It might make it illegal, but it does not make it a riot. If his decision was to defy orders to vacate the premises, than he should have been arrested, not put into a medically induced coma.

I'm not sure about the procedures of the Oakland Police Department, and I know that a couple of years ago they had to downsize their police force due to budget cuts, but I do know that the use of non-lethal projectiles such as tear gas guns, bean bag guns, rubber bullets, etc., are not intended to be aimed at anything higher than the sternum - for this very reason.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by RedJester

-No vandalism.
-No looting.
-No arson.
-Not a riot.

Showing up to a Halloween party naked doesn't make it a swingers party. Showing up to a protest in riot gear because the mayor labelled it an unlawful assembly doesn't make it a riot, either. It might make it illegal, but it does not make it a riot. If his decision was to defy orders to vacate the premises, than he should have been arrested, not put into a medically induced coma.

I'm not sure about the procedures of the Oakland Police Department, and I know that a couple of years ago they had to downsize their police force due to budget cuts, but I do know that the use of non-lethal projectiles such as tear gas guns, bean bag guns, rubber bullets, etc., are not intended to be aimed at anything higher than the sternum - for this very reason.

I see official riot criteria have been established! Excllent, end of discussion. Sorry - its not a black and white definition, and I'm sure alot of people would consider an illegal, unlawful assembly clashing with an armed riot squad the beginnings of a riot.

And how do you know the big bad cop was aiming for the head? You continue to miss the point - if you choose to stand in front of an active firing squad, its only a matter of time before one of those projectiles hit you in the face due to randomness/human error/entropy/etc.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

It wouldn't be the first time that the police turned a peaceful demonstration into a riot.

Anybody here remember that thread where plainclothes police in Montreal went around trying to incite a riot among peaceful demonstrators?

I doubt it was that simple, but regardless, this battle trained soldier consciously decided to stand right in the middle of an active riot.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't know if the use of rubber bullets was actually proven or if we have protestors saying that hey man we saw it.

I would think that if plastic bullets were indeed fired then they would have been presented by now.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Like I said when I was in the military way back then and had to take an urban pacification course to fulfill a stupid checkmark for UN duty, we were trained not to think of tear gas cannisters or grenade simulators or arty sims or flash bangs as direct attack weapons.

Maybe this cop missed a day of training. I don't know.

Curious ... regarding the training for firing off a tear gas cannister or baton round. Waist height and fire into the ground?

[Yasa]

Wikipedia (oh noes!) defines a riot as;

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

A riot is a form of civil disorder characterized often by what is thought of as disorganized groups lashing out in a sudden and intense rash of violence against authority, property or people. While individuals may attempt to lead or control a riot, riots are thought to be typically chaotic and exhibit herd behaviour, and usually generated by civil unrest.

Google dictionary defines it as;

Originally Posted by Google

Verb: Take part in a violent public disturbance: "students rioted in Paris"; "a night of rioting".

Noun: A violent disturbance of the peace by a crowd: "riots broke out in the capital".

Websters defines it as;

Originally Posted by Websters

a : public violence, tumult, or disorder
b : a violent public disorder; specifically : a tumultuous disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons assembled together and acting with a common intent

A protest is defined as;

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

A protest is an expression of objection, by words or by actions, to particular events, policies or situations. Protests can take many different forms, from individual statements to mass demonstrations. Protesters may organize a protest as a way of publicly making their opinions heard in an attempt to influence public opinion or government policy, or they may undertake direct action in an attempt to directly enact desired changes themselves.

Google defines it as;

Originally Posted by Google

Noun: A statement or action expressing disapproval of or objection to something.

Websters defines it as;

Originally Posted by Websters

1: a solemn declaration of opinion and usually of dissent: as a : a sworn declaration that payment of a note or bill has been refused and that all responsible signers or debtors are liable for resulting loss or damage b : a declaration made especially before or while paying that a tax is illegal and that payment is not voluntary


2: the act of objecting or a gesture of disapproval <resigned in protest>; especially : a usually organized public demonstration of disapproval

So it looks as if the common definition for riot is an act involving violence. It seems as if these protests did not have any violence prior to police intervention. So, no I wouldn't have classified these as riots during the flash bang incident.

[Stumptown]

Originally Posted by Bagor

I would think that if plastic bullets were indeed fired then they would have been presented by now.

Plenty of photos of the projectiles and injuries posted on Twitter.

http://yfrog.com/nzzcazj
http://twitpic.com/76d8ki
http://twitpic.com/75xdys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXSVF...ature=youtu.be

And that's just a few.

[RedJester]

I'm not going to argue the definition of what constitutes a riot with anybody, although I do stand firmly behind the belief that this wasn't one and I'll leave it at that.

Police are trained not to fire off non-lethal projectile weapons willy-nilly because it can lead to severe trauma and fatal injury. Accidents such as a man standing not 15 feet away getting struck in the face, fracturing his skull and sending him into emergency surgery to remedy the swelling in his brain.

I'm not excusing his guys actions. It was his choice to break the law, but that does not give the police the authority to potentially end his life with carelessness.

Thankfully, last I had heard, he is in stable condition - or this whole incident could have turned into something much, much worse.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

I doubt it was that simple, but regardless, this battle trained soldier consciously decided to stand right in the middle of an active riot.

There was no riot that I saw.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

It wouldn't be the first time that the police turned a peaceful demonstration into a riot.

Anybody here remember that thread where plainclothes police in Montreal went around trying to incite a riot among peaceful demonstrators?

I remember being a part of that thread.

The police will absolutely send in the agent provocateur to incite violence so the police/media have the excuse to then shut down, dis-credit and assault the protest......

Those cops were caught inciting violence at the Security and Prosperity Summit in Quebec........advancing the NAU. They even had to admit it afterwards. I think they also caught provocateurs at G20 Toronto wearing police boots, or boots that were identical to them, stomping on the police cars .....I have not followed that up though. It's an old sneaky government tactic....although usually only in a totalitarian state.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Here's some interesting info. on agent provocateurs here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

" is a person employed by the police or other entity to act undercover to entice or provoke another person to commit an illegal act. More generally, the term may refer to a person or group that seeks to discredit or harm another by provoking them to commit a wrong or rash action."


"In the United States, the COINTELPRO program of the Federal Bureau of Investigation had FBI agents pose as political radicals to disrupt the activities of political groups in the U.S., such as the Black Panthers, Ku Klux Klan, and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.
New York City police officers were accused of acting as agents provocateurs during protests against the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York City."

"On August 20, 2007, during meetings of the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America in Montebello, three protesters were accused of being police provocateurs by Dave Coles, president of the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada. The three masked protesters, one of whom was notably armed with a large rock, were asked to leave by protest organizers. After the three protesters breached the police line, they were brought to the ground, handcuffed, and taken away. The evidence that the arrested people were police provocateurs was circumstantial, including the fact that they were wearing boots identical to those worn by police."

[Beerfest]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Thats what I was trying to get at, however I go back to the point of did the cop really see the body lying there, the video shows that it was uttely chaotic there, and how did they interpret the mob rushing towards the police line where the guy was lying.

Usually with flash bangs, you only need to get it in the general area for it to be effective, you don't have to or don't want to hit anyone with a exploding pyrotechnic device.

So it was either an honest to god mistake in an incredibly chaotic, frightening situation.

Or it was a

"Hey fellows, watch this" stupidity moment.

None of us know that.

Unless the cop is blind, id say he saw the injured person lying there.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Stumptown

Plenty of photos of the projectiles and injuries posted on Twitter.

http://yfrog.com/nzzcazj
http://twitpic.com/76d8ki
http://twitpic.com/75xdys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXSVF...ature=youtu.be

And that's just a few.

Ahhh... thanks.

Completely different to what I was thinking of. I was thinking that they were talking about these bad boys.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Rathji

While I think it was a totally idiotic action, concluding definitively that the intention of the police officer was to put this person in a medically induced coma is pretty much the same.

I understand (hope?) that you didn't actually mean it like that, but that is what you are saying.

There's a difference between being stupid and being reckless.

Originally Posted by Stumptown

Plenty of photos of the projectiles and injuries posted on Twitter.

http://yfrog.com/nzzcazj
http://twitpic.com/76d8ki
http://twitpic.com/75xdys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXSVF...ature=youtu.be

And that's just a few.

Those are not rubber bullets, nor are they single projectiles... they are stinger balls.

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I remember being a part of that thread.

The police will absolutely send in the agent provocateur to incite violence so the police/media have the excuse to then shut down, dis-credit and assault the protest......

Those cops were caught inciting violence at the Security and Prosperity Summit in Quebec........advancing the NAU. They even had to admit it afterwards. I think they also caught provocateurs at G20 Toronto wearing police boots, or boots that were identical to them, stomping on the police cars .....I have not followed that up though. It's an old sneaky government tactic....although usually only in a totalitarian state.

Really? You make it sound like this is a common occurrence. What do you base this on exactly?