Occupy Calgary/Do Not Merge

[squiggs96]

In the words of Mitch Hedburg, "I don't like protesting, but I don't know how to show it."

[burn_this_city]

[RedMileDJ]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If you have a message you want to get out there you need to think about the answer to the question "why are you doing this" and make sure you and all your people are capable of providing a consistent, concise message. Ideally you should be providing the media with a fact sheet, or background information outlining who you are, what you want and who the protest is targeting - with supporting information.

Based on what I read here though I can see this coming off as just a bunch of people protesting for the sake of protesting. The absence of a real focus or desire action coming from the protest makes it tough for the media to cover it well.

This.

I've been watching all the news stories, and reading online...and I still don't understand why these people are "occupying."

To me it just looks like a bunch of unemployed hippies that need to somewhere to bang their drums, rather than getting out in the work force and being part of working society.

Sorry...that's what I see. "boo...I can't get a job!" Really? Sitting around here crying about it won't solve anything.

[RedJester]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...29884420111011

They were rimmed by the massive, impersonal edifices of a government they felt no longer cared about them - and they were preparing to confront the banks and speculators further downtown who had hijacked the state for their own private interests. They spoke with a diversity of voices and held signs covering a spectrum of demands. But it could all be summed up in one word: fairness.

All it really takes is a google search.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Poser, it's called Frolf....

Haha, really? I've never even done it, I was just speaking up for their rights!

If the common citizen doesn't speak up for the rights of Frolfers in their city, who will champion their cause?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

Anyways, I'm just poking fun- protest away.

I'll smoke a j for ya in between my 9th and 10th frizbee golf holes.

And yeah, I do know what it looks like, and I expected it to pretty much go over as it did here. This is still Calgary, and I am very aware of that. I have debated a lot of these points already in the other occupy thread, the US political discussion thread, the economic thread. Etc, ad nauseam. It's hard to jump right into the middle of the discussion or issue. I had hoped my first post would be enough of a starting point, but I guess not. It could be my fault.

But as a few posters have maintained, the debate, issues, talking points, are already out there. I can't sum up everything, nor can I tell you what it should mean to you if anything. I really liked what jammies said above me. And I'm just doing my part. I'm just passing along the movement here. Anyone who is interested can either find out more, or contact me if they like. I'm not an organizer by any means, (hah if I was it would be WAY better... )but I decided I would get involved enough to be a point of contact for interested people here. We do get a lot of people talking politically, I thought some may be interested in acting.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Daradon

But as a few posters have maintained, the debate, issues, talking points, are already out there. I can't sum up everything,.

Yeah but you need to figure out how to do just that.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here - but if you and your colleagues that are organizing this are unable to sum up why you are doing it - that will come across in any media coverage you get.

You need a 10 second answer to the questions "why are you doing this" "what is this protest about" "what do you want to see changed".

Those are 3 questions as a reporter I would be asking for sure. All I'm saying is make sure you have a clear answer.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Yup but it probably won't be the story the organizers are hoping for unless they can bring some focus to the event.

Frankly I could pump out a script for how this story would be covered right now - but the most critical part will be the sound bites. If organizers and participants can sum up with a great deal of clarity why they are doing this - it won't come off well.

An example from 2009 that was full of clarity:

Spoiler!

Originally Posted by RedJester

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...29884420111011

All it really takes is a google search.

"Fairness"? Fairness in what? That's the issue. What is broken? What needs to change? What change do you desire?

Read the rest of the article. A nurse wants better health care. A union man wants fewer job cutbacks. An actor is angry because, well, he's angry. And a teacher who, ironically, can neither articulate why she's there or properly spell her protest sign. Then the article goes on to argue that the movement exists because "democracy is broken". And then the website itself is claimed to argue against the rich getting richer off the backs of the "99%".

Six different viewpoints in one article, and it all boils down to "I hate everything." If the "movement" is going to be effective, it needs to coalesce around a common cause. Otherwise it will continue to be viewed as it is in this thread: a mob with no real direction.

[RedMileDJ]

"fairness"

Life isn't fair. Life is what you make it.

Quit being lazy and get off your butt and change your own life. Quit looking for a hand-out.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I like how you responded to Jiri's complaint about how these protests are unspecified with more unspecified arguments. "Just exercising democracy"? Some vapid argument that not protesting means we risk losing freedom?

Don't get me wrong, I respect your right to protest, and I would never say "you're an idiot for joining in", but the purpose of this is so vague that I simply can't bring myself to care. To me, your expression of democracy is akin to writing in "none of the above" on an election ballot. Yeah, you expressed yourself, but in the end you have failed to accomplish anything.

And the truly sad part is that if you go down to City Hall on any given weekend, there is usually a group protesting something. Pro-military, anti-war, pro-Libyian rebels, anti-rodeo, etc. These people have specific messages they want to get out to the public, and only the people who happen to be traveling down 1st S.E. ever see it. Yet this mess of a protest will probably be the lead story on the evening news. A fairly sad reflection on what we place our values in, if you ask me.

Missed your reply, and I can't add too much more than what I've already said. I did like your response though and I totally get it, I just have to disagree on the mood of the protest I guess. You feel the purpose or message is vague, I feel it is large and hard to define, but still very important. As I've said a few times, I was one of the first to comment on the first Occupy thread that I felt the movement needed a more concise message. I totally get where you are coming from.

But as a few have said better than I, I guess it's just about empowerment, fairness, and as I said, democracy. It's not my movement, I can't define someone else's message. And I think that's the point. It's truly leaderless. Void of someone or something taking it over. Impervious of having a political party use it like the Tea Party movement. But don't make the mistake of thinking that just because it doesn't have a leader, or a candidate, or a list of demands, or the desire to overthrow the government, that it isn't worthwhile. It's the people who don't get noticed talking together loud enough to be noticed.

[RedJester]

Originally Posted by Red-Mile-DJ

"fairness"

Life isn't fair. Life is what you make it.

Quit being lazy and get off your butt and change your own life. Quit looking for a hand-out.

lol wut?

[RedJester]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

"Fairness"? Fairness in what? That's the issue. What is broken? What needs to change? What change do you desire?

I can't speak for them, as I'm just an observer in all of this, but it sounds like their "demands" are pretty diverse.

I'm sure a more opaque mandate will eventually form itself out of this, as these things usually do. Right now, I think it's just people venting their frustrations.

[4X4]

This is one of the kookiest things I've ever heard of. A bunch of well to do hipsters occupying a park because they're upset about stuff. What is stuff? Well, you know, the way things are.
Something about Dubya in there, the big, mean banks, the recent recession, the gap between rich and poor. Everything. Just everything. It's all so upsetting, that we should go hang out on an island for the day, by golly.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm mocking you, but come on. You don't even have a call to war. You're telling people to join you if they're just as upset about ....stuff.

How about instead of all you people sitting in a circle and singing Cumbaya all day, you all grab an apron and serve food at the DIC or something useful? And then tell the media that your mass volunteerism is dedicated to the cause of closing the gap between rich and poor? Or were you just going to share your doob with the homeless guy instead?

Whatever. Have fun. I'm sure sitting around all day chanting is going to have positive impact on something. We're not sure what, but hey, what does that matter?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Yeah but you need to figure out how to do just that.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here - but if you and your colleagues that are organizing this are unable to sum up why you are doing it - that will come across in any media coverage you get.

You need a 10 second answer to the questions "why are you doing this" "what is this protest about" "what do you want to see changed".

Those are 3 questions as a reporter I would be asking for sure. All I'm saying is make sure you have a clear answer.

If you have listened to many of the protesters on the news they have had very intelligent responses to that. Some of them are in fact what changed my opinion of the whole thing.

But they are often different. They, while having a common theme of alienation from the system, and disparity of wealth in the system, cover a wide range of ideas and issues.

And if I get asked myself, I will have a equally good answers that has to do with me and my life.

As I mentioned once (and I'm not sure if this was before or after your post) I am not organizing this. I am not in contact with others here in Calgary. I have no colleagues in this matter. (I would actually be doing this much differently if I was involved)

I put this out here today because there are many politically minded people on this forum. And I'm inviting whomever may be interested to join. But more importantly I'm just keeping the talk going. As I said, it's pretty much ended up the way I expected, but at least we did 5 pages in a few hours.

I think part of the reason it's largely leaderless is that way it can't be hijacked by a political party or masquerading interests. Does that create some problems? Sure. OBVIOUSLY! But look what happened to the Tea Party. Should it become that instead?

And no, I don't think you are a jerk Jiri.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Hmmm, a baby boomer arguing against new protests saying they are cliche... Saying they are nothing like past protests. Saying they are ill founded and don't mean much.

How unexpected.

'Don’t be fooled by the clichés of protest movements past. The most radical people today are the ones that look the most boring. It’s not about declaring war on some nefarious elite. It’s about changing behavior from top to bottom. Let’s occupy ourselves.'

I wonder what writers in the 60's said about Vietnam protesters. I wonder how important the old white people set in their ways thought about the civil rights movements for African Americans and women.

It's a good article Cow, but how do YOU feel about it?

I agree with David Brooks.

The Occupy Wall St. movement seems to be unfocussed, appears to be thinking small and narrowly and seems to be more interested in unlikely revenge or spite on a select few - including wealthy matrons of Palm Beach - who probably aren't the right targets or even guilty of anything, suggesting a certain illiteracy amongst the participants.

As an example, most appear to have no clue that financial institutions have largely repaid the emergency liquidity loans given them in 2008, with a profit to taxpayers.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/mone...d-bancorp.html

I am impressed that certain elements of the Federal Reserve and some titans of business have stepped forth to offer public support for Occupy Wall St., although, like me, they admit they're kind of confused as to what the end game is supposed to be. You're seeing more and more business leaders stepping forth - including the Presidents of Cisco and Starbucks in the last week - to complain about the rudderless political establishment and its role in making the difficult economic stretch even more so but, unlike the Occupy Wall St. protesters, they're offering specific solutions on the regulatory and taxation front. They've got ideas to agree or disagree with, as does David Brooks in his column.

Occupy Wall St. doesn't seem to have that contribution. Its simply an outlet for frustration.

Given 47% of Americans don't pay taxes and roughly 20% of all taxpayers put up roughly 80% of all taxes collected . . . . . don't be surprised if those are the guys influencing policy.

"Corporations are people too" got a lot of laughs at the expense of Mitt Romney but there's an element of truth there. People forget that there was a time, even in Canada I believe, when only landowners could vote.

I've also seen another apt quote from the President of a large multinational . . . . "I'm not an American corporation. I'm a global corporation" which is a new factor in the mix.

Occupy Wall St has pretensions of populism but is gradually gravitating to the shrill left . . . . . as the Tea Party is dominated by the shrill right. That doesn't help the crediility of either.

Someone earlier in the thread said I would be opposed to protesting. That's not the case. Knock your brains out. I think I've been pretty clear that the fight would be better focussed on the campaign trail, at legislatures and at the White House. The placards should be there instead. My only perceived role is to pressure the group to do something useful with its time, namely contribute something to the debate.

Being burdened with age and a long memory, it seems to me people come out to complain when economic times are rude and then disappear when times are great . . . . . which makes you wonder about how deeply held the Occupy Wall St. principles might be.

Because Occupy Wall St. doesn't appear to stand for much beyond vague frustrations, a return to better times - without systemic change - would probably cause it to dwindle of life and disappear.

We've seen periods of deleveraging before. On average, they take seven years to unwind, unemployment typically averages about five percet higher than normal and usually, economic growth isn't very sustainable, making it easy to slide back into shallow recessions. Sounds very familar.

We've probably got another three or four years to go. Then the movement dies. Unless you've actually got a cause you're fighting for.

Cowperson

[Regular_John]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Missed your reply, and I can't add too much more than what I've already said. I did like your response though and I totally get it, I just have to disagree on the mood of the protest I guess. You feel the purpose or message is vague, I feel it is large and hard to define, but still very important. As I've said a few times, I was one of the first to comment on the first Occupy thread that I felt the movement needed a more concise message. I totally get where you are coming from.

But as a few have said better than I, I guess it's just about empowerment, fairness, and as I said, democracy. It's not my movement, I can't define someone else's message. And I think that's the point. It's truly leaderless. Void of someone or something taking it over. Impervious of having a political party use it like the Tea Party movement. But don't make the mistake of thinking that just because it doesn't have a leader, or a candidate, or a list of demands, or the desire to overthrow the government, that it isn't worthwhile. It's the people who don't get noticed talking together loud enough to be noticed.

I have to ask, is being noticed a worthwhile enough cause? I'm seeing a lot of parallels between the current 'Occupy' movement and the live8 concerts from a few years ago. A lot of noise being made (End Poverty Now! Starving children is wrong!) with very little follow through.

To me it seems that awareness of an issue is only step one, yet this whole movement is revolving around everyone shouting their specific issue all at once and nobody being able to work past that step. I get that everyone wants/needs to be heard, but is that really enough? Simply pointing out that you're unhappy with something while offering no real solution or making any attempt to work towards a resolution?

The cynic in me feels labeling Live8 as Private Jets for Climate Change was completely fair. Is the OccupyLocation movement just going to end up being Lots of Noise for Something or Other?

Yes, you are the 99%, but so am I. And my tax dollars are flipping the bill for your clean up while the 1% smokes cuban cigars at the country club and laughs while they still don't pay their share of taxes.

[username]

The only thing that I can possibly see making sense is someone protesting the bailouts of 2008. Now it's 2011 and you've kind of missed that boat. Furthermore the bailouts didn't occur in Canada they were down in the US so what exactly are people protesting up here?

Daradon, you say you're protesting what's going on in the US since it affects Canada so why are you not in NYC protesting? What good is protesting nothing in Calgary going to do? Honest question.

[Daradon]

(What I would ask for)

I can't disagree with a lot of what you've said Cowperson. But I do think without change it will get much worse.

I guess if people want to know what I think, and what I want, it would be as this:

I will focus on the US first as that's really the meat of the argument, and it is a point I made in a previous thread.

I think they need (and I would ask for) four types of reform or regulations. The first two for the political system, the second two for the economic system.

First, change how money works in the electoral system. Change the PAC's and the SUPERPAC's and the corporations used to hide the SUPERPAC donation lists. Make rules on how much can be donated and get rid of all the loopholes all these PAC's represent.

Second, tighten up the lobbies. I know, not too much to ask right? I can't really tell you how, but I think most people agree the corporations and special interest groups have far too much say in governance, and more importantly, prevent the representative from acting in the best interests of their constituants(sp). Put regulations again on donations, gifts, etc. and tighten up those loopholes.

Third, now to business, as you yourself Cowperson have suggested, bring in reforms for the banking system. Again, I'm no expert, but I would think the US could probably get closer to mirroring our system as a start.

Fourth, back to the corporations, close those tax loopholes. You don't even need to tax them more, just make sure they (and their boards and shareholders) are paying their share.

They need to be done in that order though, because if you don't clean up capital hill, they won't have the ability or will to clean up the economic sectors as they will still be in their pockets.

And that is the catch 22, the politicians aren't going to give up what they have right now. No way, no how. I mean look what the Repubs were prepared to do just to try and get back into power 1.5 years from now. And based on how Obama has behaved so far, the Dems aren't going to give up their perks either.

So if the people who need to fix the problem, won't fix the problem cause they are part of the problem, isn't that when protesting is supposed to take place?

As I said, it is a lot of, 'I wish, and we should' and not a lot of 'this is how we do it', but for those that think I don't have and idea of what I would like to see, or what others would like to see I hope it proves otherwise.

Lastly, for Canada, I just think it's important to highlight the voices of those who feel outside the system and bring attention to the fact that even though we are weathering the economic storm pretty well here in Canada, there are many people who need help. I also think it's important to show we are active in democracy, lest some of the policies that have cause so many problems down south start to creep up here. I know this may sound abstract to a lot of people but it's really not. A vigilant populous keeps the politicians honest (or at least more honest).

I hope that's a start for what some people may want out of demonstrating and proof I have ideas of what I think would help. As I said, I can't speak for everyone, and I think that's the point.

[troutman]

They were rimmed by the massive, impersonal edifices of a government they felt no longer cared about them - and they were preparing to confront the banks and speculators further downtown who had hijacked the state for their own private interests.

This whole movement seems like a mirror of the Tea Party movement on the right.

[CaptainCrunch]

Without the concealed pistols and m-16s

After reading the occupy wall street demands list they are exactly like the Tea Party for the Left.