I doubt Harper is going to win, but if he does...

[Blaster86]

Originally posted by Sammie+Apr 23 2005, 11:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Apr 23 2005, 11:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Blaster86@Apr 23 2005, 07:56 PM
Harper is a loon.

What an idiotically stupid comment! [/b][/quote]
Typical of most Right Wing attacks and rhetoric. It's hypocritical!

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by longsuffering@Apr 24 2005, 11:24 AM
And you obviously don't care if the Alliance dominated Conservative Party will eviserate Canada's social programs, tramble on the rights of minorites and women, send Canadian soldiers to fight and die in senseless wars and stick their noses up GWB's butt for an extra trade dollar.

The Ad scandal sickens me, but I will not vote for a party that will systematically dismantle the things that make me proud to be a Canadian.

Can you show me how and where the CPC will "eviserate Canada's social programs"?

Can you show me where the CPC will "tramble on the rights of minorities and women?"

It's been said a million times, but Paul Martin would have sent Canada into Iraq as well, if he felt it would improve his political carreer.

Can you show me where working with our largest trading parter and most important ally means "sticking our noses up GWB's butt"?

I didnt think so either.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Mike F+Apr 24 2005, 10:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike F @ Apr 24 2005, 10:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

As opposed to this gem:

<!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Apr 9 2005, 11:28 AM
The Green Party? Is that where people gather and share the merger pickings from their nostrils?

[/b][/quote]
Did I neglect to put a smilie face on that or did you neglect to include it? It's obvious my silly attempt at humor totally passed you by.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm wasting my time, but I have to ask how you KNOW that "the people that deserve to lose thier jobs will be protected by the judges that they appointed."


Lets call it a guy feeling, but as its coming out that lawyers that worked for the Liberal re-election campaign are being appointed as judges, then I feel that they are more willing to work for thier masters then justice.

Spoken like a true cynic. Let's wait and see. I doubt JC will go to jail, but I believe some of the key players will.


Obviously I'm willing to wait before I believe anything, and am I a cynic, for sure, but I haven't always been. I don't trust the Liberals to do the right thing.

Remember the rating is based on perception. You cannot say with any certainty whether Canada's rating will rise or fall as a result of the Gomery Commission. Banana republics bury their scandals, literally in some cases. I believe Martin's government is sincere in letting events take their course and for Gomery to continue his work independently. Our TI rating could raise as a result of the public enquiry.

Since the Information based around the Gomery inquiry won't be official til November, and since it won't have gotten to any kind of prosecution stage, its likely that our perception ranking will drop moving us down the list. Its unlikely to raise until people actually begin to go to jail and the people surveyed see that the mess is cleaning up. Just my humble opinion.

And I suggest you provide some evidence rather than throw out phrases like: "Canada has also slid steadily downwards on this list since the Liberals retook power." Have you got anything to back up your not-so-veiled suggestion that the government was responsible for changes in ratings? Or is it just another thing you KNOW Carnack? Demonstrate a cause and effect. The US rating has been dropping since Bush became President.

here are the stats since 1995, as far back as the retained stats go

Country Score Surveys year ranking

Canada 8.87 4 1995 5 out of 150
Canada 8.96 6 1996 6 out of 150
Canada 9.92 5 1997 5 out of 150
Canada 9.92 5 1998 5 out of 150
Canada 9.92 10 1999 5 out of 150
Canada 9.92 6 2000 5 out of 150
Canada 8.9 8 2001 7 out of 150
Canada 9.0 10 2002 10 out of 150
Canada 8.7 11 2003 11 out of 150
Canada 8.5 12 2004 12 out of 150

U.S. 7.79 4 1995 14 out of 150
U.S. 7.66 7 1996 15 out of 150
U.S. 7.61 7 1997 16 out of 150
U.S. 7.5 7 1998 17 out of 150
U.S. 7.5 19 1999 18 out of 150
U.S. 7.8 10 2000 14 out of 150
U.S 7.6 11 2001 16 out of 150
U.S. 7.7 11 2002 16 out of 150
U.S. 7.5 13 2003 18 out of 150
U.S. 7.5 14 2004 17 out of 150

So based on the website Canada has dropped from a high of 4th to a low of 12th and thier aggregate score has decreased from a high during that period of 9.92 to a low of 8.5 in 2004. The U.S. has gone from a high of 14th to a low of 18th with a rebound to 17th last year. Thier socre has gone from a high of 7.79 to a low of 7.5. So if you look at international perception which nation has gone through the greatest change? Which nation has dropped the most in International scale. Unfortunately there aren't published reports from pre 1995 or even pre liberal as that would be an interesting study. However we do see effects from two governments in the U.S. as well.

And no I certainly wasn't blaming Martin for the U.S. corruption figures, but I'm pretty sure that if he had access to the U.S. social program and military budgets he would have been able to buy France for his wife by now.

And as has been pointed out a number of times, although you keep ignoring it - the Finance Minister sets the Budget - he does not and never has, had responsibility for monitoring spending.

So what your saying is that the Finance Minister works for two months a year and completely dosen't make sure that the Government sticks to the budget. That he has no clue that there over the budget that he laid out in Stone. Please show me where thats laid out in the processes because I'm not really buying that. what your basically saying is that the government isn't responsible for its spending, and the fianance minister is really just a monetary philosipher(sp?) with not real power. Wow, I think we've now found the problem with the government. Thanks

One last thing. I was a Conservative most of my life (back when the PC represented the centre and the Liberals were further to the left of the political spectrum), but Harper's party does not share my values. Call me silly, but I have to support the party that thinks like I think. The one that believes in Social programs, a woman's right to choose, basic Human Rights for everyone and most importantly an INDEPENDENT foreign policy.

Thats great, and I applaud you for that and your beliefs. But the Conservatives have never said that they were going to remove Social Programs, or a womans right to choose (they might not agree with them, but they're not going to remove them especially under a minority government setting). They're not going to go to war on basic human rights or rewrite the charter into some radical christain manefesto as that would be political suicide. And I really don't think the Conservatives are going to give up out independent foreign policy, and would probably strengthen it, imho.

But we'll have to agree to disagree, on party platforms, since politically none of the Canadian parties have a set in stone platform of beliefs, its what will get them the most votes.

Like I said before, its sad to me that we're willing to sacrifice accountibilty for platform.

Have a nice day

[Sammie]

Originally posted by longsuffering@Apr 24 2005, 12:19 PM
I could probably support a MacKay or Stronach lead Conservative Party. I can't support a Canadian Alliance led party. The party should get rid of the right wing, religious right wackos and maybe they'd have a chance to form a majority government some day.

Why don't you get to know what the party stands for and something about the people in the Party before you brand them as religious right wing wackos. I'm growing exceedingly tired of these deceitful comments that keep being repeated in spite of their untruthful nature.

If you lean to left wing policies that's fine. Present your argument and then listen politely to the opposing opinion. Perhaps we can all learn. There is no need for character assassination unless, like the Liberals, you have nothing else to offer.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Sammie+Apr 24 2005, 07:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Apr 24 2005, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Did I neglect to put a smilie face on that or did you neglect to include it? It's obvious my silly attempt at humor totally passed you by. [/b][/quote]
Very, very silly humour. Almost uninteilligibly silly. Almost stupid-silly. It passed a lot of people by, maybe it wasn't their mistake.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Blaster86+Apr 24 2005, 12:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Blaster86 @ Apr 24 2005, 12:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

What an idiotically stupid comment!

Typical of most Right Wing attacks and rhetoric. It's hypocritical! [/b][/quote]
You left wingers would never stoop to hypocritical attacks and rhetoric, would you?!!! Why are you guys resorting to belittling anyone who opposes you? Have you nothing to add to the discussion?

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Apr 24 2005, 01:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Apr 24 2005, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Did I neglect to put a smilie face on that or did you neglect to include it? It's obvious my silly attempt at humor totally passed you by.

Very, very silly humour. Almost uninteilligibly silly. Almost stupid-silly. It passed a lot of people by, maybe it wasn't their mistake. [/b][/quote]
Oh great! First you attack my character, now it's my humor, what's next? How low are you prepared to go to destroy anyone with an opposing opinion? :baby:

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Sammie+Apr 24 2005, 07:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Apr 24 2005, 07:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Typical of most Right Wing attacks and rhetoric. It's hypocritical!

You left wingers would never stoop to hypocritical attacks and rhetoric, would you?!!! Why are you guys resorting to belittling anyone who opposes you? Have you nothing to add to the discussion?[/b][/quote]
Discussion?

Raise your hands if anything said in this thread has thoroughly convinced you that your original beliefs are wrong and its time to join the other side.

Anyone?

I doubt it. These Liberal/Conservative(Green) threads are tiring exercises of fine-tuning exactly where our political differences lie, and then belittling each other. We all whip out 'facts' that conveniently support our arguments, but probably all lack the comprehensive viewpoint to make an 'objective' judgement call on any of this.

Its too bad we can't create a separate room for these threads. I'd probably only post there

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Apr 24 2005, 01:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Apr 24 2005, 01:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

You left wingers would never stoop to hypocritical attacks and rhetoric, would you?!!! Why are you guys resorting to belittling anyone who opposes you? Have you nothing to add to the discussion?

Discussion?

Raise your hands if anything said in this thread has thoroughly convinced you that your original beliefs are wrong and its time to join the other side.

Anyone?

I doubt it. These Liberal/Conservative(Green) threads are tiring exercises of fine-tuning exactly where our political differences lie, and then belittling each other. We all whip out 'facts' that conveniently support our arguments, but probably all lack the comprehensive viewpoint to make an 'objective' judgement call on any of this.

Its too bad we can't create a separate room for these threads. I'd probably only post there [/b][/quote]
We obviously have a "failure to communicate" problem here. Perhaps we should consider counseling before we split up "amicably" to separate rooms. Besides, I'd get tired of posting to myself and people who agree with everything I say. I'd be bored in no time at all! ;_; :blush: :unsure:

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by longsuffering@Apr 24 2005, 11:24 AM

And you obviously don't care if the Alliance dominated Conservative Party will eviserate Canada's social programs, tramble on the rights of minorites and women, send Canadian soldiers to fight and die in senseless wars and stick their noses up GWB's butt for an extra trade dollar.

You 'obviously' don't know the first thing about what I care about or don't, so go play drama queen with someone else.

The Ad scandal sickens me, but I will not vote for a party ....

So if it sickens you, support the NDP or the Greens.

How hard was that?


edited because I 'obviously' can't figure out the quote button

[Blaster86]

Originally posted by Sammie+Apr 24 2005, 12:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Apr 24 2005, 12:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Typical of most Right Wing attacks and rhetoric. It's hypocritical!

Why are you guys resorting to belittling anyone who opposes you? Have you nothing to add to the discussion? [/b][/quote]
But I did add something to the discussion, I just happened to say Harper was a Loon aswell. And that is what he is, most So-Cons are. Jerry Falwell? Dubya? They don't exactly have all the marbles. Anyone who puts war ahead of people is well, a loon.

Then you decided to call my comment idiotic. See I never insulted you, how ever when it was brought up that you had made a similar comment I pointed out the hypocrisy which is very common in arguements I have with hard-line righties.

Now your only escape is to say we are resorting to belittleing when it is quite obvious you went there first.

[flambers]

IMO, When the Alliance & Bloc are ready they have enough seats between them to force an Election. This will happen. I believe it will happen in June. Don't forget I believe there is 3 or so seats in the Liberal party that are considering going Independant or joining the Alliance.

As for a Majority, Ontario will decide what happens. Quebec will go almost 100% Bloc, The West belongs to the Alliance. The Central will be interesting.

[Blaster86]

Originally posted by flambers@Apr 24 2005, 06:01 PM
The West belongs to the Alliance.

Alberta belongs to the Conservatives. Slowly BC is becoming NDP again.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally posted by Blaster86+Apr 24 2005, 07:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Blaster86 @ Apr 24 2005, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-flambers@Apr 24 2005, 06:01 PM
The West belongs to the Alliance.

Alberta belongs to the Conservatives. Slowly BC is becoming NDP again. [/b][/quote]
God, both are just plum awful aren't they. Its like picking between the Oilers and the Canucks.

[the-rasta-masta]

I'd pull a Fleury and be embarrassed to be Canadian if the Liberals win again.

[Blaster86]

Originally posted by MrMastodonFarm+Apr 24 2005, 06:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MrMastodonFarm @ Apr 24 2005, 06:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Alberta belongs to the Conservatives. Slowly BC is becoming NDP again.

God, both are just plum awful aren't they. Its like picking between the Oilers and the Canucks. [/b][/quote]
Most would consider that picking between the best two Canadian teams in the west.

It's looking like a Conservative minority, but we all know that won't even make it until the year ends.

[Sammie]

What's wrong with a minority government? It means these guys are going to have to work at getting along to make the next government work.

The last thing Canada needs right now is a majority Liberal government where the status quo continues and evidence disappears while whistle blowers are silenced and removed from their jobs.

If we REALLY want to remove government corruption, the Liberal Party MUST be removed from power. Just how extensive the corruption is has yet to be revealed and what are the odds of anyone tainted by the corruption to step forward and admit they were involved. Just watch the game Martin plays while responding to legitimate questions directed to him during question period.

[Blaster86]

Originally posted by Sammie@Apr 24 2005, 07:46 PM
What's wrong with a minority government? It means these guys are going to have to work at getting along to make the next government work.

The last thing Canada needs right now is a majority Liberal government where the status quo continues and evidence disappears while whistle blowers are silenced and removed from their jobs.

If we REALLY want to remove government corruption, the Liberal Party MUST be removed from power. Just how extensive the corruption is has yet to be revealed and what are the odds of anyone tainted by the corruption to step forward and admit they were involved. Just watch the game Martin plays while responding to legitimate questions directed to him during question period.

We have a minority government now, they are not trying to work together. They are trying (more than likely in vain) to destroy the Liberal party of Canada.

Politics in Canada do not work like that right now. A minority government will not see any sides try and work together in this climate. They will just try and take what ever government is in power down. Do you think the Bloc and NDP will listen to the conservatives? Do you think the Conservatives will go along with the NDP left wing agenda? Do you think any of the parties will give any weight to Liberal motions? A Minority government, no matter what party, would be dead within a year.

Now they way it looks a Liberal majority is going to happen again, probably before 2010. After Martin steps down/gets ousted and a left leaning Liberal (like Chretien, probably somone from his cabinet) steps up they will probably be on track for another majority, scandal or not.

Like I said earliar. Theives or So-Cons? Canada will take Theives.

[MarchHare]

What's wrong with a minority government?

The current Liberal government can work (in theory at least) because the Libs have natural socially-left allies in the NDP and Bloc, and they can throw the CPC a bone or two in the budget like corporate tax cuts to get it passed.

Who's going to help a CPC minority pass anything? Ironically, the closest party to the Conservatives are the Liberals, and I really don't see them cooperating in the near future should the CPC bring down the Libs. A Conservative minority is more likely to fall within a year than the current Liberal minority is.