Albertans on average give $3,700 to other provinces per year.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

That's not at all how equalization works. When I lived in New Brunswick in the 90s, the province was running a balanced budget (after some pretty harsh service cut-backs) yet still received equalization payments. Without equalization, the NB government wouldn't be able to provide its citizens with similar quality healthcare and education and infrastructure as the richer provinces. Transfer payments have absolutely nothing to do with the fiscal responsibility (or lack thereof) of the various provincial governments or the "laziness" of the population as perceived by Albertans.

Except because of equalization Quebec is providing higher end government subsidized healthcare, education and infrastructure then the provinces that are paying into the pot because Quebec for example runs itself into a hole budget wise. As I pointed out before in the last 4 years Quebec's share of the equalization payments have increased by 74%, and that one province gets more then half of the total equalization point. Thats not only unfair but its irresponsible of Quebec to not address their ongoing deficit budget.

Quebec shouldn't be a have not province, they have resources, they have hydro, they have a large industrial base, and a decent sized population base, they're almost a have not province because they have no motivation to not be.

Alberta is running a 5 billion dollar deficit this year, I don't get why we should be paying into the pot.

[MarchHare]

Why should I pay my money to someone else?

Because that's part of the social contract when you live in a Western democracy.

And who says health care is equal in all provinces? That is simply not true. Education, childcare, infrastructure - it is all not equal. Transfer payments as you suggest certainly does not work in any way that guarantees equality.

No, quality of service is not exactly equal across every province (and I never suggested it was), but imagine how much worse the inequality would be without equalization. Do you think PEI could afford to maintain a quality education and healthcare system without transfer payments? Should the rest of Canada just turn their back on that province and let them live like second-class citizens?

You also state the NB had some pretty harsh service cut-backs, yet still provided similar quality healthcare, education and infrastructure. So what did they cut back if this still had similar quality health care, education and infrastructure? Please clear that up.

Without transfer payments, those three big-ticket items in NB would be on par with what you'd expect to get in a developing country, not an industrialized Western democracy like Canada. New Brunswick has neither the population nor the industrial base (Irving family notwithstanding) to fund healthcare and education to levels that would provide their citizens with similar standards to Canadians in other provinces. Equalization ensures that people in less prosperous areas of the country aren't second-class citizens when it comes to providing such vital services. As a tax-paying Albertan, I'm more than happy to see my federal dollars spent this way.

[CrusaderPi]

So if New Brunswick doesn't have the population nor industrial base why is there a New Brunswick? If the model is failed why keep going with the model?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

So if New Brunswick doesn't have the population nor industrial base why is there a New Brunswick? If the model is failed why keep going with the model?

Because New Brunswick provides us with... ummmm..... yeah I've got nothing. A border with Maine???

[Julio]

A couple notes on the overall discussion:

-Equalization is a small part of the overall 'transfer' between have and have not provinces. The total in the entire equalization payments is about 13.5 billion for fiscal 10-11. The total intergovernmental transfer of money from the feds to the provinces is about 55.7 billion dollars. Almost half of that is for health care. Per person that's $1635 or so.

-Different provincial governments get different amounts, and one of the factors in the differences is equalization. Per person numbers:

Newfoundland: $1988 per person...down almost $1000 per person in the past 5 years thanks to oil revenues.
NS: $2809
PEI: $3466...paying for provincial infrastructure for a pop below 200,000 is costly.
NB: $3334...mentioned because of the discussion above.
Quebec: $2206...about half of this is equalization
Ontario: $1197...up since they are now getting some equalization payments
Manitoba: $2746...yep, just below what NS gets and more than Quebec. Manitoba gets a ton of equalization, partly because the formula includes provincial revenue from stuff like O&G, but excludes hydro power sales.
Sask: $1153...former have not province hasn't got equalization since 07-08
Alberta: $883...lowest in country, but up about 25% more per person than 5 years ago.
BC: $1142...nips out Sask for second place.

Most of this info is from here: http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp

There are also personal transfers, such as EI and CPP payments. For example, somebody that worked and payed into the system with taxes and EI/CPP in Alberta in, say 2008 might have lost their job and moved back to Nova Scotia, where they then took EI in 2009, thus being a contributor here and a taker there in consecutive years.

[TylerSVT]

Originally Posted by Stranger

Is Quebec always a have not province or do they usually contribute to payments?

Typically the only provinces to produce "in the black" are Alberta and Ontario with BC moving in and out depending on commodity prices.

[Knut]

^ I think Saskatchewan has started to become more "in the black" mostly because of Oil Revenues in SW Saskatchewan.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Hesla

^ I think Saskatchewan has started to become more "in the black" mostly because of Oil Revenues in SW Saskatchewan.

potash?

[tripin_billie]

"I love Albertans, always bragging about hitting a triple when they were born on top of third base."

This isn't mine originally, I saw it somewhere else, but it really succinctly sums up much of the Alberta attitude. It wasn't until I moved away from Alberta, and then out of Canada, that I really realized how petty this attitude is.

Also, as other posters have pointed out, some of you would do well to take a look at Alberta's financial history before complaining about bailing out other provinces. How did those Prosperity Certificates work out for you all?

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by tripin_billie

"I love Albertans, always bragging about hitting a triple when they were born on top of third base."

That's a great line. I'm gonna use that.

[bomber317]

Originally Posted by tripin_billie

"I love Albertans, always bragging about hitting a triple when they were born on top of third base."

This isn't mine originally, I saw it somewhere else, but it really succinctly sums up much of the Alberta attitude. It wasn't until I moved away from Alberta, and then out of Canada, that I really realized how petty this attitude is.

Also, as other posters have pointed out, some of you would do well to take a look at Alberta's financial history before complaining about bailing out other provinces. How did those Prosperity Certificates work out for you all?

Ok, I agree it is petty if CaptainCrunch's post about Quebec is refuted.

If it is true that they have more expensive social programs and yet take the majority of equalization payments, I'm not on board with that.

Why do the other have-not provinces make an effort to balance the budget, yet get rewarded with more payments going to Quebec who spends more on social programs? Why can't Quebec cut some back and have the payments spread out more equally?

[TylerSVT]

Originally Posted by tripin_billie

"I love Albertans, always bragging about hitting a triple when they were born on top of third base."

This isn't mine originally, I saw it somewhere else, but it really succinctly sums up much of the Alberta attitude. It wasn't until I moved away from Alberta, and then out of Canada, that I really realized how petty this attitude is.

Also, as other posters have pointed out, some of you would do well to take a look at Alberta's financial history before complaining about bailing out other provinces. How did those Prosperity Certificates work out for you all?

Who cares? I cant say that Canada is the greatest country in the world just because i was born here?

Guess what, at the end of the day Alberta is still effectively funding other provinces.. not cool.

[amorak]

Originally Posted by TylerSVT

Who cares? I cant say that Canada is the greatest country in the world just because i was born here?

Guess what, at the end of the day Alberta is still effectively funding other provinces.. not cool.

You're so small-minded. Look back in history and you will see times when Alberta was equally helped out by our brothers in Confederation.

... That trailer in DeWinton that says "Less Ottawa - More Alberta"... You sleep in that, don't you?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by tripin_billie

"I love Albertans, always bragging about hitting a triple when they were born on top of third base."

This isn't mine originally, I saw it somewhere else, but it really succinctly sums up much of the Alberta attitude. It wasn't until I moved away from Alberta, and then out of Canada, that I really realized how petty this attitude is.

If being in Alberta makes you more economically productive, perhaps we should not be reducing the incentive for workers to move to Alberta.

[TylerSVT]

Originally Posted by amorak

You're so small-minded. Look back in history and you will see times when Alberta was equally helped out by our brothers in Confederation.

... That trailer in DeWinton that says "Less Ottawa - More Alberta"... You sleep in that, don't you?

Im all for equality and i dont mind sending money over there but when they have better social programs... that tends to bug me.

[Kybosh]

I'm looking forward to the day when Saskatchewan also becomes a true provincial powerhouse with all their untapped resources.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

I'm looking forward to the day when Saskatchewan also becomes a true provincial powerhouse with all their untapped resources.

I recall reading about Saskatchewan being one of the richest uranium deposits in the world. Who knows, 10 years down the road, Saskatchewanians (??) might be looking down their noses on us Albertans instead and complaining about the big influx of Albertan's taking all their jobs.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by tripin_billie

"I love Albertans, always bragging about hitting a triple when they were born on top of third base."

This isn't mine originally, I saw it somewhere else, but it really succinctly sums up much of the Alberta attitude. It wasn't until I moved away from Alberta, and then out of Canada, that I really realized how petty this attitude is.

Also, as other posters have pointed out, some of you would do well to take a look at Alberta's financial history before complaining about bailing out other provinces. How did those Prosperity Certificates work out for you all?

Other provinces aside, how is it petty in regards to Quebec. As someone who has no real desire to leave Alberta it would be great to get the Quebec perspective from a seasoned traveller such as yourself.

Other provinces we all get, Quebec is the only one.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by SebC

If being in Alberta makes you more economically productive, perhaps we should not be reducing the incentive for workers to move to Alberta.

There's been some good arguments coming out that one of the reasons for Canada's bad productivity performance is fiscal federalism and equalization muting labour mobility. If you look at the U.S. labour is much more mobile going from low to high productivity areas.

Eitherway, that is the price we pay for knitting together such diverse geographic and demographic areas. Especially two entirely distinct founding cultures (British-French). Without this fiscal union the country would simply not have been able to stick together.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by TylerSVT

Who cares? I cant say that Canada is the greatest country in the world just because i was born here?

Guess what, at the end of the day Alberta is still effectively funding other provinces.. not cool.

You're not funding anyone! Stop whining...