The Darryl Sutter effect: Assessing the aftermath

[Locke]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Treliving and coaches man, what a disaster. Two won Coach of the Year while he was GM but neither Hartley (already hired) or Sutter (owner hire?) can be attributed to him. Glen Guletzan was bad enough but sticking with Geoff Ward after he was forced to turf Peters is probably worse.

Yeah...he was awful, so if its true that ownership went around him on Sutter....can you blame them?

Especially after Peters.

Not that I'd expect Treliving or any hiring individual to necessarily know...but Treliving famously didnt even interview anyone else. Peters was his man and no others were considered.

Yeah, I think he got more kicks at the can than any other GM, I'd have taken his keys away.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Who's throwing their hands around creating facts, Textcritic?
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl...-nhl-1.6828069


Sutter was fired, because his tactics didn't work. He failed, the GM that hired him left, and the new guy wanted wanted a fresh start.

Ol Textcritic making things up again. Trying to spread slanderous rumors.

[jayswin]

nm

[Sandman]

I know I'm a broken record, but as I've said before- if I didn't know better, I would swear Sutter was purposely sabotaging the season to undermine Treliving and make him look bad. Was he trying to take his job? I dunno, but consider:

-He changed the teams whole identity/style/system defensively (man-on-man) and offensively (high volume of shots), because he said we lacked true offensive talent. This, after we aquired a player who set a record for assists by a LW, and a C who was coming off a career season. Weegar was vitually found money in that trade.
-Plays said LW on his off side, where he's clearly uncomfortable, with said C, who he clearly has no chemistry with, and keeps them together most of the year, despite their struggles. Guess he looked too good with Lindholm in the first 5 games.
-When you're struggling to find offense, who better to press in to top-6 duty than Milan Lucic for long stretches...
-Dan Vladar is playing too well- better play Markstrom, who is sucking, for the next 3 weeks.
-Valimaki.
-No need to practice 3-on-3, we're already terrible enough in OT. Cost us the season.
-Dube is on too much of a roll. He needs to play 4th line for a while.
-Season is on the line, let's put Nick Ritchie in the shootout.

Anything I'm forgetting?

[Snuffleupagus]

Not sure how Sutter making the dumbest lineup decisions in flames history makes Treliving look bad, he looked to me like a coach that wanted to get fired.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ ugh. I’m trying to forget last year

You don’t like to think of a nefarious subplot, but the decisions were so ridiculous I don’t care about the motivation.. they just can’t happen. Huberdeau plays LW. 3 on 3 matters, whether you like it or not. Looch isn’t a top 6 and needing someone clutch and looking to Ritchie? What a cluster####

Whatever his motivations, glad the whole thing is in the rear view

[btimbit]

I think Gaudreau was gone either way but man, I'd kill to still have Tkachuk. 8x10 and slap the C on his chest, would have been a thing of beauty

[Naitix]

I still believe Kadri subconsciously wasn’t trying as hard because he knew that if they missed the playoffs then Sutter would be fired. We are gonna hear a different tune about Kadri this year

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by Naitix

I still believe Kadri subconsciously wasn’t trying as hard because he knew that if they missed the playoffs then Sutter would be fired. We are gonna hear a different tune about Kadri this year

Kardi was out best player to start the season, carrying plays, drawing penalties etc etc, then he hit an absolute wall. After a long season and grueling playoff the year before it shouldn't have come as a surprise.

[Saqe]

Felt like Sutter was trying to get last year's team going by shaking it any way possible. You often see weird lineup choices etc. when things aren't going well but with Sutter it was constant last year, it truly felt like he wanted to get fired.

That said, the year before they had a great regular season and seems like people want to swipe that under the rug. He was a great HC in this league and IMO whatever happened last year had to do with more than just Sutter.

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by Sandman

I know I'm a broken record, but as I've said before- if I didn't know better, I would swear Sutter was purposely sabotaging the season to undermine Treliving and make him look bad. Was he trying to take his job? I dunno, but consider:

-He changed the teams whole identity/style/system defensively (man-on-man) and offensively (high volume of shots), because he said we lacked true offensive talent. This, after we aquired a player who set a record for assists by a LW, and a C who was coming off a career season. Weegar was vitually found money in that trade.
-Plays said LW on his off side, where he's clearly uncomfortable, with said C, who he clearly has no chemistry with, and keeps them together most of the year, despite their struggles. Guess he looked too good with Lindholm in the first 5 games.
-When you're struggling to find offense, who better to press in to top-6 duty than Milan Lucic for long stretches...
-Dan Vladar is playing too well- better play Markstrom, who is sucking, for the next 3 weeks.
-Valimaki.
-No need to practice 3-on-3, we're already terrible enough in OT. Cost us the season.
-Dube is on too much of a roll. He needs to play 4th line for a while.
-Season is on the line, let's put Nick Ritchie in the shootout.

Anything I'm forgetting?

Rolled out the same power play each time despite it obviously not working.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Sandman

I know I'm a broken record, but as I've said before- if I didn't know better, I would swear Sutter was purposely sabotaging the season to undermine Treliving and make him look bad. Was he trying to take his job? I dunno, but consider:

I don't mind giving Sutter credit for making the Flames a miserable place to play but I want to push back on some of those points.

Originally Posted by Sandman

He changed the teams whole identity/style/system defensively (man-on-man) and offensively (high volume of shots), because he said we lacked true offensive talent.

He used the same system we had the year before. The same system most of the team already knew, and the one that gave the team success the year before.

Originally Posted by Sandman

He said we lacked true offensive talent. This, after we aquired a player who set a record for assists by a LW, and a C who was coming off a career season.

Sutter prides himself on pushing the right buttons. He was saying the same things when we had Gaudreau, and Tkachuk every time we would go against McDavid, Draisaitl, or any other elite forward. We don't have the firepower we're the underdog etc. That's how he tries to motivate his teams. He only started calling Gaudreau and Tkachuk elite after they left!

Originally Posted by Sandman

When you're struggling to find offense, who better to press in to top-6 duty than Milan Lucic for long stretches

Lucic was far from the first experiment Sutter tried with Hubereau. However when the big man was put with Huberdeau they managed to score a couple of goals 5 on 5. I agree that Lucic was kept there for way too long.

Originally Posted by Sandman

Dan Vladar is playing too well- better play Markstrom, who is sucking, for the next 3 weeks

Let's look at the history of Sutter and his goalies. He often has a clear number 1 like Kipper or Quick. He often played those guys a ton. When they had a bad stretch he let them play out of it. Vladar was winning some games, but he was still a .900 goalie at best. If we made it to the dance we needed Markstrom to be competitive.

Originally Posted by Sandman

Valimaki

Valimaki played himself off the team. He started pouting when he outperformed Z, yet Z was still given a roster spot after Valimaki played 5-10 games with Gudbranson. The lack of injuries that year mostly made Valimaki a healthy scratch. When he was sent to the AHL, he was their 3rd or 4th best D-men behind the likes of Mackey, and DeSimone. We all saw him in training camp that year, and he looked lost defensively.

Originally Posted by Sandman

No need to practice 3-on-3, we're already terrible enough in OT. Cost us the season.

No argument here.

Originally Posted by Sandman

Dube is on too much of a roll. He needs to play 4th line for a while.

That's the way Sutter has been operating all season. He had pairs of forwards Lindholm - Toffoli, Backlund - Coleman, Huberdeau - Kadri. As soon as a line started becoming stale, he switched a winger. That's why we had Ruzicka play great with Lindholm - Toffoli, then went back to Dube. Every winger played with them for a spell.

Originally Posted by Sandman

Season is on the line, let's put Nick Ritchie in the shootout.

I don't know why Ritchie was in the shootout. If the team had practiced it then it would be easy to explain, but here I have no idea. That's one of those desicions that if it works out great, but if it doesn't it makes you look really bad.

Originally Posted by Sandman

Anything I'm forgetting?

Playing Huberdeau on RW, while he wasn't comfortable there. It worked great with Tkachuk though, and that's a part of the reason it was tried with Huberdaeu. Also the fact that we clearly lacked players on RW.

[sa226]

When Sutter was brought in, the good ship Calgary Flames were rudderless and needed a big correction. The coaching carousel was never ending. Star players were underperforming.

At the time, I think he was the right guy to bring in to give the core one last push. In hindsight I think losing Gio had more of an impact that we realize, because he was that established, respected Captain that could have been the barrier between the team and Sutter.

Last season was a disaster in many different ways. The team lost their identity with Gaudreau and Tkachuk leaving. They were left floundering with a guy that everyone hated in the Head Coach position.

It's crazy to think that when Sutter returned to coach LA, nobody gave him the time of day. The game has passed him by. He was a dinosaur. That was 10 years ago. 2 cups later he proved everyone wrong.

Well now, I think his detractors are finally right. His methods don't have a place in the league anymore. I do think there was a method to his madness. He had reasons for his lineup decisions, he had reasons for how and what buttons he pushed. But those methods just don't work anymore.

It's kind of a sad end to a pretty great career, but it was a fitting end.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Playing Huberdeau on RW, while he wasn't comfortable there. It worked great with Tkachuk though, and that's a part of the reason it was tried with Huberdaeu. Also the fact that we clearly lacked players on RW.

Could nitpick a lot else, but MT and JH are completely different players. JH's greatest strength is holding the puck on the left side and making the perfect pass. He might be on a very short list with Oates and Thornton for 'best passer since Gretzky'. Why you'd mess with his X-factor skill like that is simply inexplicable.

[GioforPM]

“ I don't know why Ritchie was in the shootout. If the team had practiced it then it would be easy to explain, but here I have no idea. That's one of those desicions that if it works out great, but if it doesn't it makes you look really bad.”

The reason given was Ritchie’s shoot-out record. But the problem with that is sample size. If Ritchie got lucky in, say, 2 of his 4 attempts (that’s a made up number) a 59% average looks good on paper. But that’s pretty random. It doesn’t turn him into a go to guy.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

“ I don't know why Ritchie was in the shootout. If the team had practiced it then it would be easy to explain, but here I have no idea. That's one of those desicions that if it works out great, but if it doesn't it makes you look really bad.”

The reason given was Ritchie’s shoot-out record. But the problem with that is sample size. If Ritchie got lucky in, say, 2 of his 4 attempts (that’s a made up number) a 59% average looks good on paper. But that’s pretty random. It doesn’t turn him into a go to guy.

That makes sense. I was too lazy to dig up his shootout numbers.

I find it interesting that Huska gets a free pass on all of those desicions. I understand that the ultimate call was Sutter's, but he could've approached Sutter if/when he disagreed with him. Why didn't he have the player's backs more? Where was the leadership? Why couldn't he motivate the team when it got lazy under Ward. I'm sure Huska is a great hockey mind, but he was a part of the team's failures as much as the head coaches.

[Sandman]

Gotta disagree with you, gvitaly. Sutter was coaching last year like he had a team that he didn’t believe in, and was trying to make them overachieve. The system was tweaked on both sides of the puck, with an emphasis on volume of shots, which he employed because he stated that we lost 2 40 goal scorers, and didn’t have the offensive talent anymore. He was competing to “squeak” in.

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

That makes sense. I was too lazy to dig up his shootout numbers.

I find it interesting that Huska gets a free pass on all of those desicions. I understand that the ultimate call was Sutter's, but he could've approached Sutter if/when he disagreed with him.

Because Sutter was a one man band. This isn't conjecture.

[TheChief]

Sutter took a team who's


1.goaltender was 32 out of 32 for starters
2. Star player who went from 115 to 55 points (biggest drop in league history)
3. High profile UFA who pouted since game 5 when they switched the lines
4. A paid bread man who what, scored 20 less goals after getting PAID.



And they missed the playoffs by 3 points.



Sutter wasn't the problem and I can't be convinced otherwise. Last season hangs on the veteran players who were not pros.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TheChief

Sutter took a team who's


1.goaltender was 32 out of 32 for starters
2. Star player who went from 115 to 55 points (biggest drop in league history)
3. High profile UFA who pouted since game 5 when they switched the lines
4. A paid bread man who what, scored 20 less goals after getting PAID.



And they missed the playoffs by 3 points.



Sutter wasn't the problem and I can't be convinced otherwise. Last season hangs on the veteran players who were not pros.

Now, what was the one constant that caused/led to those things?