09-08-2017, 12:51 PM
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#61
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Franchise Player
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Good deal for Vancouver. We'd be thrilled if Bennett produced as Horvat has.
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09-08-2017, 12:58 PM
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#62
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Lifetime Suspension
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Quote:
Originally Posted by activeStick
Good deal for Vancouver. We'd be thrilled if Bennett produced as Horvat has.
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Wouldn't be surprised if Bennett does, this season. Horvat hit 20 goals last year, Bennett had 18 the season prior as a 19 year old. Both should see an increased role this year however Bennett will be fighting Monahan and Backlund for ice time, while Horvat's the best pivot now as Daniel Sedin continues to age.
My guess is you see Bennett up to the mid 40 or 50 point range and Backlund lower to that number. Think Sam will see an increased PP role, especially if he has success early and establishes himself.
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09-08-2017, 01:09 PM
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#63
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Backup Goalie
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
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Great deal for Van, I wonder if this means Granlund will get a similar contract next year to the current Backlund deal?
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09-08-2017, 01:17 PM
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#64
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Fernando Valley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brzeisk13
Great deal for Van, I wonder if this means Granlund will get a similar contract next year to the current Backlund deal?
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Markus Granlund is basically a winger now and he's not going to command near what Backlund currently makes ($3.75 million/season).
Last edited by Erick Estrada; 09-08-2017 at 01:19 PM.
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09-08-2017, 01:17 PM
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#65
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Love
Steal. I don't think Draisaitl or Monahan are better players than Horvat
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You may be the only person who thinks that.
Horvat is a fine player, but likely has the lesser offensive upside of those guys.
He'll get first line minutes, so should score more than a guy like Backlund, but in my mind his best value is as a shut-down #2 centre. Basically what Backlund is.
And many here don't want to pay that amount to Backlund when it's covering all UFA years.
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09-08-2017, 01:28 PM
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#66
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Acerbic Cyberbully
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Love
mm, I guess we could argue semantics. yeah, he's a number one center, but a lower-ended one.
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Monahan ranks 14th in production among all NHL centres over the span of the past three seasons. I would accept that he is an average top line centre, but by every metric he is certainly better than "a lower-ended one."
Quote:
[I]I guess I could have used the word elite instead of bonafide, but what I meant was skating is a large part of his game which is holding him back from reaching that upper echelon of centers. he can't create his own offense nor is he a play driver...
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I reject this assertion. While Monahan has had the benefit of on ice chemistry with Gaudreau (a relationship in which Gaudreau has most definitely also benefitted), he too frequently is short-changed by observers for his in game contributions. Speed never has been part of his game, nor will it ever be so. Monahan succeeds by his on-ice vision and IQ, and while he is not flashy he is more than capable of carrying and distributing the puck to create offense—he has been doing it since he broke into this league.
He has played on several occasions away from Gaudreau and has been just fine. Two seasons ago when Gaudreau missed three games Monahan registered four points. Last year he really didn't get going until Gaudreau returned from injury, but he actually improved on a very poor start in Gaudreau's absence prior to the first week of Dec while he was still recovering from back strain. He was arguably the Flames best forward in the playoffs last year.
Monahan belongs in the conversation of the best player from the 2013 draft. He has always been a better player than Horvat and I don't expect that will ever change.
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09-08-2017, 01:34 PM
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#67
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
Absolutely, but I am listening to the local Vancouver radio now and there is some expectation among fans and media that Horvat can be a +70-point centre.
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Can be, yes.
Most experts suggest he doesn't have the type of offensive upside to be that type of producer.
On a good team, Horvat should get the shut-down role, which should limit his offensive production.
I think Horvat is worth $5.5M, but a team should expect players at a more bargain rate in the pre-UFA years. Horvat simply hasn't displayed that type of production yet to warrant that type of contract.
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09-08-2017, 01:40 PM
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#68
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ullr
7 million next season?? Am I seeing this right?
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The distribution is largely irrelevant per se, the AAV is what is important.
Last edited by The Cobra; 09-08-2017 at 02:01 PM.
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09-08-2017, 01:40 PM
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#69
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poe969
So Botchford reported that the bridge deal was a done deal... are these "insiders" just guessing or what?
This seems a bit much for Horvat but that's just me, he may be worth it but the whole nucks team just seems not important.
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any chance at a bridge deal went out the window when Wennberg signed for 6 yrs; two very similar players (age, production, position )
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09-08-2017, 01:42 PM
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#70
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Lifetime Suspension
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Random
The last resort of the delusional: Claim that everybody who is aware of the facts is just mindlessly following the same propaganda line.
‘2 + 2 does not equal 4, comrade! You only say so because you are brainwashed by bourgeois capitalist commercial media!’
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It's more the opposite. It's like people aren't allowed to formulate their own opinions without being name-called.
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09-08-2017, 01:43 PM
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#71
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Lifetime Suspension
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I don't think Horvat is a better player than Monahan but I also hear the arguments. I don't think it's crazy to think that Horvat is a better player. There's arguments for an against.
Ultimately, Monahan's goal scoring is hard to deny even though Horvat has a more complete, more intense game.
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09-08-2017, 01:46 PM
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#72
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Crash and Bang Winger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
Monahan is already a bona fide #1 centre. He has been one of top producing centres in the WC the past three seasons.
And while his skating is not great, I think you are drastically overrating Horvat's. He is a good skater, but "elite"? I disagree.
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Let's add more spice and derail this thread a little more - Backlund says hello regarding the 1C comment. How much is he going to get?
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09-08-2017, 01:46 PM
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#73
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Scoring Winger
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Down by the sea, where the watermelons grow, back to my home, I dare not go...
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That's a good signing IMO.
While I agree Monahan is a better player right now, I wouldn't be surprised if Horvat reached the same levels as him in a few years. Horvat seems extremely motivated. For example, when he was drafted, one of the knocks against him was his skating ability. Now, he has some pretty explosive skating.
The two players absolutely play the game differently. It will be interesting going forward to see how they match up.
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09-08-2017, 02:02 PM
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#74
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Lifetime Suspension
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
Monahan ranks 14th in production among all NHL centres over the span of the past three seasons. I would accept that he is an average top line centre, but by every metric he is certainly better than "a lower-ended one."
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While he does score at an average first line centers rate, he definitely doesn't defend like one. Factoring in both ends of the rink, I would (arbitrarily) think he ranks in at somewhere around 20 (with still room to grow as a player consider he's only 22)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
I reject this assertion. While Monahan has had the benefit of on ice chemistry with Gaudreau (a relationship in which Gaudreau has most definitely also benefitted), he too frequently is short-changed by observers for his in game contributions. Speed never has been part of his game, nor will it ever be so. Monahan succeeds by his on-ice vision and IQ, and while he is not flashy he is more than capable of carrying and distributing the puck to create offense—he has been doing it since he broke into this league.
He has played on several occasions away from Gaudreau and has been just fine. Two seasons ago when Gaudreau missed three games Monahan registered four points. Last year he really didn't get going until Gaudreau returned from injury, but he actually improved on a very poor start in Gaudreau's absence prior to the first week of Dec while he was still recovering from back strain. He was arguably the Flames best forward in the playoffs last year..
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For sure, Monahan is a great player in his own right, nobody is saying otherwise. I actually think playing with Gaudreau is holding him back from being more assertive as he often likes to defer to Gaudreau when they play together. Monahan has his moments like that goal he scored against the Oilers last season where he carried the puck from his own zone all the way to the slot to score, but we just don't see it happen consistently enough like the Getzlaf's and Tavares' make happen. He is routinely good and a premier finisher when he gets the chance, but not very often do we see that Herculean like shift from him where he dominates his opposition and wills that puck across the line. That's what I think separates him from the truly elite. Who knows if he ever gets there, and there isn't anything wrong if he doesn't because that's the company of the top 5% of centerman in the league.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
Monahan belongs in the conversation of the best player from the 2013 draft. He has always been a better player than Horvat and I don't expect that will ever change.
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I mean I'm sure this same sentiment would have been echo'd in 2015 if one tried to argue that they liked Schiefele over Nugent-Hopkins going forward. We all know that cliche saying about a marathon vs. a sprint. Monahan outproducing Horvat in 2014 does not guarantee him to be the better player in 2018 or any future years going forward.
Last edited by Love; 09-08-2017 at 02:04 PM.
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09-08-2017, 02:16 PM
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#75
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GioforPM
Monahan also consistently faced the best checkers in the league. I doubt Horvat did. When the Canucks and Ducks played I'm betting Kesler played the Sedins, not Horvat's line.
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I think Horvat actually has it rougher than Monahan when it comes to competition.
According to PuckIQ which measures icetime against Elite/Middle/Poor comp, Horvat was the highest on his team out of players that spent the whole season in Vancouver.
Monahan was behind Backlund obviously.
So Horvat was more likely to play against the McDavids then Monahan.
Everyone loves Backlund. Deservedly so.
He took until age 28 to score 50 points while playing against top comp.
Horvat did it at 21.
If that kid takes even another baby step he'll be a hell of a player. Basically Backlund with Monahan's offence.
We wait to see if it occurs.
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09-08-2017, 02:17 PM
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#76
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cobra
I think Horvat is worth $5.5M, but a team should expect players at a more bargain rate in the pre-UFA years. Horvat simply hasn't displayed that type of production yet to warrant that type of contract.
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Meh, I mean, look at the deals that have been signed this summer. Is he really that much worse than Johansen or Draisaitl that you wouldn't prefer this deal? I would have said 6x6 would be fair in this market. 6x5.5 is a mild bargain. Not a steal, but team friendly on the whole.
And yeah Horvat's definitely not as good a player as Monahan.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
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09-08-2017, 02:27 PM
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#77
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick Estrada
I look at his junior production and feel that the player he was last season is pretty close to his ceiling.
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I don't know if that's necessarily true. On the surface his draft year production wasn't amazing, but he had a tremendous finish to the year and a great playoffs. While playing a shutdown role he put up 41 goals in 61 games from the end of November until the end of the playoffs. Then in his 18 year old season he managed a 1.37 pt/g pace which is excellent. The improvement in his skating alone should give people pause when trying to draw too much from his numbers as a 17 year old.
With more PP time and better wingers in the future, I don't see why he couldn't improve to be a 60-65 point player. Where he really needs to make improvement is in his own end. For a guy who was projected by many to be a strong defensive center with weak skating and middling offense, he really has turned out to be the opposite.
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09-08-2017, 02:30 PM
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#78
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Our Jessica Fletcher
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Will be interesting to see if Bennett can take a similar step forward this season as Horvat did last year. Their stats are nearly identical thru the first 2 seasons of each of their careers:
Bennett
158GP 31G 31A 62PTS
Horvat
163GP 29G 36A 65PTS
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09-08-2017, 02:41 PM
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#79
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First Line Centre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
Monahan ranks 14th in production among all NHL centres over the span of the past three seasons. I would accept that he is an average top line centre, but by every metric he is certainly better than "a lower-ended one."
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Although I don't dispute he is better then Horvat, looking at total points isn't the best way to evaluate production over a long time period. It ignores players like McDavid, Mathews, and Eichel who have recently broken into the league and ignores players like Stamkos that dealt with injuries over that time span.
If you look at points per game (min of 80 GP) Monahan is 23 overall (Horvat is 79. On LW Gaudreau is 4 and Tkachuk is 24). Based on point production he is a 'lower-ended' top line centre.
Points aren't everything, and Monahan is a top goal scorer which bumps his value, but he doesn't play a top defensive game, he isn't physical, and his face offs are average. Let's hope Monahan finds another offensive level, improves his defensive play, or we see another player (like Bennett) develop into a top 10 producer at the position.
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09-08-2017, 03:09 PM
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#80
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Draft Pick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFK
Wouldn't be surprised if Bennett does, this season. Horvat hit 20 goals last year, Bennett had 18 the season prior as a 19 year old. Both should see an increased role this year however Bennett will be fighting Monahan and Backlund for ice time, while Horvat's the best pivot now as Daniel Sedin continues to age.
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Henrik Sedin plays center, Daniel Sedin plays left wing.
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