The New American Politics thread

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

Is the legal immigration system broken? Yes.

Does that entitle you to immigrate there anyways? That is my question.

And are the citizens of that country just supposed to welcome you with open arms? Probably not.

You guys need to start looking at things from the other perspective.

As others have mentioned, that question is the reason they're in the position they're in. This is not a left/right question. It's an invented problem

As with Canada, immigration is necessary for the country to not go into prolonged economic decline. Immigration is absolutely necessary.

You also simply cannot close the borders. It's not physically possible. The US already spends billions on "securing" their southern border and it's still porous. Putting a 40 ft wall across it will cost 10's of billions of dollars, but I suppose they could recoup some of that if they export ladders for all the 40 foot ladders that will be sold in Mexico.

There is no clean solution here. Too easy of citizenship does cause a problem by letting "bad" people in. Building a wall is hilariously stupid, and I'm not being flippant. It is actually a good measure of ability to reason if someone thinks that's a good idea. You cannot prevent people from coming over and staying, so you need to decide what you're going to do about that. So far I haven't heard any suggestions from the GOP besides more walls and border patrols.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

As others have mentioned, that question is the reason they're in the position they're in. This is not a left/right question. It's an invented problem

As with Canada, immigration is necessary for the country to not go into prolonged economic decline. Immigration is absolutely necessary.

You also simply cannot close the borders. It's not physically possible. The US already spends billions on "securing" their southern border and it's still porous. Putting a 40 ft wall across it will cost 10's of billions of dollars, but I suppose they could recoup some of that if they export ladders for all the 40 foot ladders that will be sold in Mexico.

There is no clean solution here. Too easy of citizenship does cause a problem by letting "bad" people in. Building a wall is hilariously stupid, and I'm not being flippant. It is actually a good measure of ability to reason if someone thinks that's a good idea. You cannot prevent people from coming over and staying, so you need to decide what you're going to do about that. So far I haven't heard any suggestions from the GOP besides more walls and border patrols.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The "Build a Wall" idea isn't bad because it misunderstands the problem (though it likely does). Even if you agree with the diagnosis of the problem, the proposed solution reflects the problem-solving skills of a toddler. "Hilariously stupid" isn't flippant--it's bang on. This idea is preposterous, not only because it would be a gargantuan waste of taxpayer money, it would also be laughably ineffective at combating the problem that it pretends to solve.

[bubbsy]

Brutal.

CBC News Alerts ‏@CBCAlerts 33m33 minutes ago White nationalist leader David Duke says he'll run for U.S. Senate in Lousiana. Tweeted after Trump speech: 'Couldn't have said it better!'

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by DownInFlames

And just throwing them all out isn't the answer because there aren't enough Americans willing to do the crap jobs, like picking lettuce.

Why do people work as garbage men? Can we all agree that is a pretty awful job? Is it that much worse than picking lettuce? There are a lot of crappy jobs that people do.

The reason people do it is because it is mostly a unionized position, pays well, has solid benefits. People will do a lot of things for the right amount of money, including picking lettuce on a farm.

Part of the problem with the amount of illegals in the US is it allows certain employers to exploit people, pay them below minimum wage and help drive the standard of living down in the country. That type of exploitation does not help the economy and does a great deal of harm.

The US has had a national unemployment rate as high as 10% in 2009/2010 and is only finally starting to turn the corner. High unemployment rates + an illegal workforce has caused many employers to start this race to the bottom driving down real wages and continually increasing the income inequality gap between the classes.

So while I don't agree with the things Trump stands for and the constant demonizing of illegal immigrants, simply to sweep the issue under the rug is disingenuous at best.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

As others have mentioned, that question is the reason they're in the position they're in. This is not a left/right question. It's an invented problem

As with Canada, immigration is necessary for the country to not go into prolonged economic decline. Immigration is absolutely necessary.

You also simply cannot close the borders. It's not physically possible. The US already spends billions on "securing" their southern border and it's still porous. Putting a 40 ft wall across it will cost 10's of billions of dollars, but I suppose they could recoup some of that if they export ladders for all the 40 foot ladders that will be sold in Mexico.

There is no clean solution here. Too easy of citizenship does cause a problem by letting "bad" people in. Building a wall is hilariously stupid, and I'm not being flippant. It is actually a good measure of ability to reason if someone thinks that's a good idea. You cannot prevent people from coming over and staying, so you need to decide what you're going to do about that. So far I haven't heard any suggestions from the GOP besides more walls and border patrols.

The most progressive president on immigration reform was W. and his own party crushed any reasonable suggestion he had.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Why do people work as garbage men? Can we all agree that is a pretty awful job? Is it that much worse than picking lettuce? There are a lot of crappy jobs that people do.

The reason people do it is because it is mostly a unionized position, pays well, has solid benefits. People will do a lot of things for the right amount of money, including picking lettuce on a farm.

Part of the problem with the amount of illegals in the US is it allows certain employers to exploit people, pay them below minimum wage and help drive the standard of living down in the country. That type of exploitation does not help the economy and does a great deal of harm.

The US has had a national unemployment rate as high as 10% in 2009/2010 and is only finally starting to turn the corner. High unemployment rates + an illegal workforce has caused many employers to start this race to the bottom driving down real wages and continually increasing the income inequality gap between the classes.

So while I don't agree with the things Trump stands for and the constant demonizing of illegal immigrants, simply to sweep the issue under the rug is disingenuous at best.

Again though, you're inventing a straw man position. Who's sweeping it under the rug? One side wants to offer a path to citizenship, the other deportation and walls. Neither side wants the status quo

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Why do people work as garbage men? Can we all agree that is a pretty awful job? Is it that much worse than picking lettuce? There are a lot of crappy jobs that people do.

The reason people do it is because it is mostly a unionized position, pays well, has solid benefits. People will do a lot of things for the right amount of money, including picking lettuce on a farm.

Part of the problem with the amount of illegals in the US is it allows certain employers to exploit people, pay them below minimum wage and help drive the standard of living down in the country. That type of exploitation does not help the economy and does a great deal of harm.

The US has had a national unemployment rate as high as 10% in 2009/2010 and is only finally starting to turn the corner. High unemployment rates + an illegal workforce has caused many employers to start this race to the bottom driving down real wages and continually increasing the income inequality gap between the classes.

So while I don't agree with the things Trump stands for and the constant demonizing of illegal immigrants, simply to sweep the issue under the rug is disingenuous at best.

But the solution to that problem isn't deport all the illegals. Its to institute a minimum wage and enforce it and apply that minimum wage to all illegal immigrants as well. A well enforced pay roll system and penalties to those who don't meet the minimum requirements and rewards for whistleblowers would be a much more effective solution than deport the illegals and wait for Americans to take the jobs.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Again though, you're inventing a straw man position. Who's sweeping it under the rug? One side wants to offer a path to citizenship, the other deportation and walls. Neither side wants the status quo

The real question is does the US need that extra labour that is currently within its borders with current and projected unemployment rates and will that encourage future illegal immigration. That should drive policy.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Unemployment rates are virtually irrelevant when it comes to most of the jobs illegals do. Americans have made it pretty clear they won't do those jobs for minimum wage, and Mexicans will for illegal wages. I bet if you kicked out all illegals, middle America would meltdown when their grocery bill triples. Americans want it pretty much every way, and complain no matter what.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Why do people work as garbage men? Can we all agree that is a pretty awful job? Is it that much worse than picking lettuce? There are a lot of crappy jobs that people do.

The reason people do it is because it is mostly a unionized position, pays well, has solid benefits. People will do a lot of things for the right amount of money, including picking lettuce on a farm.

Part of the problem with the amount of illegals in the US is it allows certain employers to exploit people, pay them below minimum wage and help drive the standard of living down in the country. That type of exploitation does not help the economy and does a great deal of harm.

The US has had a national unemployment rate as high as 10% in 2009/2010 and is only finally starting to turn the corner. High unemployment rates + an illegal workforce has caused many employers to start this race to the bottom driving down real wages and continually increasing the income inequality gap between the classes.

So while I don't agree with the things Trump stands for and the constant demonizing of illegal immigrants, simply to sweep the issue under the rug is disingenuous at best.

Garbage men are unionized. Allow illegal agricultural workers to unionize and watch a head of less become 10 dollars.

The us economy is utterly dependent on two things, 1) illegal labour 2) military socialism make work projects

If you remove either if those things without replacing them the US is in for a major depression.

Many Americans cannot equate their standard of living as being a result of illegal immigration. When you can't examine the heart of the issue the mind invents an alternative explanation.

"Mexicans are propping up our failing economy" becomes "Mexicans are stealing our jobs!"

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

The real question is does the US need that extra labour that is currently within its borders with current and projected unemployment rates and will that encourage future illegal immigration. That should drive policy.

Their current birth rate is well below replacement and still going down, so yes

[Zarley]

Illegal immigration is undeniably a problem for the U.S. Having a massive supply of below market (essentially indentured) labour is not productive in the long run, just look at how that's worked in places like South Africa.

But there is a larger problem with the legal immigration system. US immigration favours family class immigrants over economic migrants. These are often uneducated, older people in poor health who immediately become a burden to the system. Meanwhile, international students who have earned degrees wanting to stay in the States and contribute to the economy are turned away. Politicians on both sides have done nothing to solve these issues in decades. Fareed Zakaria had a nice piece on this several years ago:

Broken & Obsolete: An immigration deadlock makes the U.S. a second-rate nation

...Would you have guessed that Canada and Australia both have a higher percentage of foreign-born residents than the U.S.? In fact, in this respect, America—which once led the world—–increasingly looks like many other Western countries. France, Germany and the U.K. have only slightly fewer foreign-born residents than America (as a percentage of the population). And some of these countries have managed to take in immigrants mostly based on their skills, giving a big boost to their economies.

Canadian immigration policy is now centered on recruiting talented immigrants with abilities the country needs. Those individuals can apply for work visas themselves; they don’t even need to have an employer. The Canadian government awards points toward the visa, with extra points for science education, technical skills and work experience.

The results of the system are evident in Vancouver, where American high-–technology companies like Microsoft have large research laboratories and offices. The people working in these –offices are almost all foreign graduates of American universities who could not get work visas in the U.S. They moved a few hours north to Vancouver, where they live in a city much like those on the American West Coast. Except, of course, that they will pay taxes, file patents, make inventions and hire people in Canada.

Sixty-two percent of permanent-resident visas in Canada are based on skills, while the remainder are for family unification. In the U.S., the situation is almost exactly the reverse: two-thirds of America’s immigrants enter through family unification, while only 13% of green cards are granted because of talent, merit and work. And it’s actually gotten worse over time. The cap on applications for H1-B –visas (for highly skilled immigrants) has dropped in half over the past decade...

Full Article

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Well, this is the first time I've been called "intellectually vacuous" in a while. But I am sorry: when someone says "black people are lazy", it isn't vacuous to say they are a racist. It's accurate. If you were talking about Mitt Romney (who also got accused, much more unfairly, of racism in 2012) you would have a point.

Whoa, I didn't call you intellectually vacuous, you seem to a be a reasonably intelligent person. Reading compression is important. I was merely commenting on the lack of substance in U.S. political discourse.

[Drak]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Garbage men are unionized. Allow illegal agricultural workers to unionize and watch a head of less become 10 dollars.

The us economy is utterly dependent on two things, 1) illegal labour 2) military socialism make work projects

If you remove either if those things without replacing them the US is in for a major depression.

Many Americans cannot equate their standard of living as being a result of illegal immigration. When you can't examine the heart of the issue the mind invents an alternative explanation.

"Mexicans are propping up our failing economy" becomes "Mexicans are stealing our jobs!"

Part of which is "We don't like brown people."

[GirlySports]

As Zarley said above Politicians on both sides have done nothing to solve these issues in decades. Not only is family reunification the more accepted route in the states, it takes fricking forever so the immigrant is old and dead by the time he gets to America.

Hillary needs to make this case starting now. Can this convention do that?

or throw them all out and let CP run America.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Illegal immigration is undeniably a problem for the U.S. Having a massive supply of below market (essentially indentured) labour is not productive in the long run, just look at how that's worked in places like South Africa.

But there is a larger problem with the legal immigration system. US immigration favours family class immigrants over economic migrants. These are often uneducated, older people in poor health who immediately become a burden to the system. Meanwhile, international students who have earned degrees wanting to stay in the States and contribute to the economy are turned away. Politicians on both sides have done nothing to solve these issues in decades. Fareed Zakaria had a nice piece on this several years ago:



Full Article

Fareed Zakaria is my favourite voice in world affairs. So smart, reasonable and principled

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Garbage men are unionized. Allow illegal agricultural workers to unionize and watch a head of less become 10 dollars.

The us economy is utterly dependent on two things, 1) illegal labour 2) military socialism make work projects

If you remove either if those things without replacing them the US is in for a major depression.

Many Americans cannot equate their standard of living as being a result of illegal immigration. When you can't examine the heart of the issue the mind invents an alternative explanation.

"Mexicans are propping up our failing economy" becomes "Mexicans are stealing our jobs!"

How much does the average Grocery bill or Big Mac cost in Fort McMurray because the wages are higher? The answer is not much more than in Calgary.

Just because you increase the wages by a certain percent, doesn't mean the cost of the good increases by the exact same percent.

Take Walmart for instance. A store like Walmart typically runs a total wage cost % of 10% in a single store.

If total wage costs increased to 15% (a 50% salary increase to all Walmart employees at that facility), the cost of Walmart goods to meet their previous profit margins would only have to increase by 5% to have the same ratios.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Their current birth rate is well below replacement and still going down, so yes

Which does nothing to answer the question of what their current needs are now. If you need more people in 20 years, bring them in at that time.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

How much does the average Grocery bill or Big Mac cost in Fort McMurray because the wages are higher? The answer is not much more than in Calgary.

Just because you increase the wages by a certain percent, doesn't mean the cost of the good increases by the exact same percent.

Take Walmart for instance. A store like Walmart typically runs a total wage cost % of 10% in a single store.

If total wage costs increased to 15% (a 50% salary increase to all Walmart employees at that facility), the cost of Walmart goods to meet their previous profit margins would only have to increase by 5% to have the same ratios.

Agree, but whatever the cost of a head of lettuce, unionized agricultural workers will increase the cost of agricultural products. In a country where 2/3rds of the population has less than $1000 that is a big deal.

The Republican party is aggressive towards both unions and illegal migrant labour. It is a paradox in my view.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Which does nothing to answer the question of what their current needs are now. If you need more people in 20 years, bring them in at that time.

If they stopped immigration today, the economy would collapse shortly. There aren't enough American workers short term or long term