Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[calgarywinning]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

He was traded for Andersson. How was that a bust?

They did use the 2nd round pick to select Andersson which is a positive. The media, especially in Vancouver consider the trade to be a win for their team. I guess at the time there was limited choice and we have good top 6 players.

The point of my post was to show how an asset like Baertschi was handled. He may have been asked to be traded, but it didn't help to have Burke running around in the media jabbing him, coaching staff... etc. Then we wonder why he had a bad attitude. Sam Bennett would probably be asked to be traded under the same condition. Does bad coaching lead to under utilization/development of these types of players? We'll see the answer next season.

[EldrickOnIce]

If comments like Burke made re Baertschi inspire a bad attitude instead of some other response, then good riddance.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

They did use the 2nd round pick to select Andersson which is a positive. The media, especially in Vancouver consider the trade to be a win for their team. I guess at the time there was limited choice and we have good top 6 players.

If they do, it is a pretty understated opinion. It has been speculated by Canucks fans and media this Spring that pending RFA Baertschi is not in the team's long term plans. The Canucks could conceivably move on from him this summer, and most of their fans would likely not feel very strongly about it.

I think that Baertschi's history with the Flames and his current place in the Canucks lineup has a tendency to be badly exaggerated. Let us be clear here: he is already 25-years old, has played in seven NHL seasons, and has never registered more than 18 goals and 35-points. Bear in mind that his production in Vancouver has come with a top-line assignment, and with time on the powerplay. He is a decent NHL forward, but hardly worth pining over.

The point of my post was to show how an asset like Baertschi was handled. He may have been asked to be traded, but it didn't help to have Burke running around in the media jabbing him, coaching staff... etc. Then we wonder why he had a bad attitude.

There were rumblings about Baertschi's entitlement issues long before Burke ever arrived in Calgary. Moreover, after he was traded to the Canucks, he spent a good, long stretch of time in the AHL where he was challenged by Utica and Vancouver coaches to change his game and his attitude in order to find some NHL success.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Sven’s problem is the same as ever
He’s not good enough offensively to be in your top 6 if you are a good team
And he doesn’t do other things well enough to have a different role
He’s a second/third line tweener. If one sees Rasmuss as a possible top 4 then it’s possoble the Flames still end up with the better player in the swap

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

The point of my post was to show how an asset like Baertschi was handled. He may have been asked to be traded, but it didn't help to have Burke running around in the media jabbing him, coaching staff... etc.

Running around? Do you mean the one accurate comment?

Baertschi was handled fine.

[pepper24]

Where does Bennett get picked now in a 2014 redraft? Was definitely the right pick at the time but a lot of players picked later have passed him. I have him out of the top 10 but not as low as other top 10ers like Virtanen, Fleury, Del Colle. Not sure where he fits in compared to Kapanen, Tuch, Fiala, Montour, Vrana.

Imagine a Pastrnak, Ehlers, Point or Nylander on our team instead.

1. FLA - Draisaital
2. BUF - Pastrnak
3. EDM - Ekblad
4. CGY - Ehlers
5. Point
6. Nylander
7. Larkin
8. Arviddsson
9. Reinhart
10. Fabbri

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Imagine a Pastrnak, Ehlers, Point or Nylander on our team instead.

Yeah, I imagine it a lot unfortunately.

[BigErnSalute_16]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I still remember a shift they had together against Nashville and Jankowski scored on, what I consider, one of the nicest goals of the season. Tic-tac-toe Bennett to Tkachuk, Tkachuk to Janko.

https://www.nhl.com/flames/video/jan...092/c-57858403

I feel there is already a bit of chemistry in the making with these 3.

It's going to be interesting how the forward situation shakes out. There won't be any top 9 spots available if we aquire another forward and don't ship anyone out. Makes it hard to see players like Foo, Dube or Mangiapane have a chance to make the team unless we want to bring them in and play them on the 4th line (I think Dube would thrive in that situation but am unsure about the other 2).

Gaudreau-Monahan-______
Bennett-Jankowski-Tkachuk
Ferland-Backlund-Frolik
Lazar-Shore-Hathaway

I really don't know how Brouwer fits on the team moving forward..

I've been saying the same thing for a while now, I think Tkachuk makes Bennett and Janko a really good line. As for the hole at the top I still want to see Ferland get one more year there. He will have his ups and downs throughout the year but imo if the team didnt fall apart he would have found his scoring touch again at the end of the year then we're talking about the perfect 25-25 physical right wing for the top line instead of everyone wanting to move him down.

Then with backlund, if Dube can make the team I think he'd fit real well there. Smart, coachable, high character player who can provide offense would be a perfect fit for that line. and if not I wouldnt mind seeing someone like lazar get an extended look there to see if Backlund can get his offense going like he has with other guys in the past.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by BigErnSalute_16

I've been saying the same thing for a while now, I think Tkachuk makes Bennett and Janko a really good line. As for the hole at the top I still want to see Ferland get one more year there. He will have his ups and downs throughout the year but imo if the team didnt fall apart he would have found his scoring touch again at the end of the year then we're talking about the perfect 25-25 physical right wing for the top line instead of everyone wanting to move him down.

Then with backlund, if Dube can make the team I think he'd fit real well there. Smart, coachable, high character player who can provide offense would be a perfect fit for that line. and if not I wouldnt mind seeing someone like lazar get an extended look there to see if Backlund can get his offense going like he has with other guys in the past.

While I agree with you in principle I don't know how having the only change to our top 9 forwards (aside from minor line shuffling) being the adding of a first year pro is supposed to improve our depth problems.

I feel players like Dube and Foo will be ready next year but we need to add another high end forward to bolster the offense. Doing so might limit the amount of spots open unless we ship some forwards out as well.

The most difficult part is I would prefer to keep all of Bennett, Janko, Ferland, Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk and Backlund on top of adding that high end forward. I doubt they will trade Frolik away so it makes one wonder how much room there will be for youngsters.

I think they'll ship at least one forward out in a package with a dman - Brodie or Stone - to land a bigger fish. Only thing I'm sure of is that forward won't be any of Johnny, Monny, Chucky or Backs.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Gaudreau - Monahan - Ferland
Tkachuk - Bennett/Jankowski - Bennett/Jankowski
Frolik - Backlund - Foo/Lazar
Mangiapane - Shore - Foo/Lazar
Brouwer

Alternate Brouwer with whomever is under-performing or isn't handling the NHL grind.

This team needs to not only get faster, but play faster. This lineup does that, IMO. I don't hate Brouwer (I just ignore what his cap hit is) and I think he does contribute in a depth role. I just think this team needs to play quick. I am also of the opinion that Bennett we don't know if Bennett is a center or a winger yet, and I wouldn't mind a season where Bennett and Jankowski are even interchanged throughout the season.

Adding Foo and Mangiapane to the lineup while eliminating Brouwer and having Stajan move on makes this team a faster team. Implement a system that sees this team transition quickly, play the 4th line more than 7 or 8 minutes a game, and I bet this will make a world of difference.

I am not convinced that this team HAS to make a big trade in order to increase their goal totals. They just need to use their speed more, and use that blue line. Heck, having Giordano and Hamilton on the PP from the start of the season and keeping everything else equal will see this team have more success.

Also, IIRC, Frolik is a natural LW'er who is able to play both wings. Move him back to LW, and have Lazar/Foo slot in on their natural side.

I don't think Shore is terrible, but I wouldn't mind an upgrade there. Someone who is just a bit faster. Foo and Lazar have speed, and so does Mangiapane. Having another center with more speed (not Jankowski or Bennett - they should be on the 2nd line regardless of position in my opinion) would be of some benefit.

I am hopeful that Peters pulls a Bob Hartley this off-season and phones every single player in the organization and tells them they better be exceptionally fit as they are going to be skating a tonne this year. I hope practices become harder - doesn't have to be as tough as Hartley's practices, but it shouldn't be as lax as what Gulutzan's practices have become. Practices should be ran at game-pace. That's what made the Oilers pathetic and the Flames overachieve (at least partially why).

[GranteedEV]

I am all for keeping Shore on board but you have to accept that he won't be a 10-15 goal scorer. So you need to have two of those on his flanks, and another one on the Jankowski line (Hathaway had 4 goals last year, Brouwer 6, Lazar 2, Glass 0 - replace this bunch with guys who will finish Shore setups and you've significantly improved goal output along with bounceback SH% seasons from Backlund & Bennett).

Personally I am of the opinion the guy who needs to fall to line 4 is Frolik. I've tossed out the Kovalchuk idea before and I realize that mostly hinges on where Kovy wants to go, but there is no way this roster:


Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-Bennett-Kovalchuk
Mangiapane-Backlund-Jankowski
Frolik-Shore-Foo

Would not be more potent. Even if you replace Kovalchuk with Versteeg I think you have a proper NHL roster.

Lazar, Hathaway and co have to go - they are not goal threats. Brouwer is, but he's also a liability in every other area and also has to go.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland
Tkachuk-Bennett-Kovalchuk
Mangiapane-Backlund-Jankowski
Frolik-Shore-Foo

Would not be more potent. Even if you replace Kovalchuk with Versteeg I think you have a proper NHL roster.

Not a good one, at least.

This team needs to move beyond having ineffective 5v5 veterans on their roster.

Also, I don't think the Flames will make the mistake of transitioning Jankowski to wing at this stage. Guy should be our 3rd or 4th line centre, and develop there in my opinion.

I do like seeing Mangiapane with good linemates though. He had one hell of a year in the AHL, and just like every other young player Gulutzan got fed, he got absolutely screwed when it came to linemates. I can't find his combos online, but I remember a fair bit of time being spent with Stajan/Brouwer/Hathaway etc.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Lazar, Hathaway and co have to go - they are not goal threats

Lazar is much like a lesser skilled version of Bennett. A kid who had his confidence destroyed by dry stretches of offensive play early in his NHL career. I think its dangerous to say he has no offensive upside. I think he showed flashes of offence even last year and could get some of his mojo back on a better line. I mean if you go back and read his scouting reports most scouts thought he had 2nd line upside, some thought more like 3rd line.

I'd be tempted to try Frolik-Backlund-Lazar as a line. I think they could be a great two-way checking line. I don't think we've seen Lazar's peak yet. Foo could also be a good fit there with Lazar on the 4th. But Lazar is a kid I think needs more of a chance.

Hathaway on the other hand is certainly a 4th line grinder at best and should never have seen time above that line (not sure what GG was thinking putting him on the 3rd line and I'm a Hathaway fan). I think he's fine at his role but maybe should be the 13th forward when we have the depth we want.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Lazar, Hathaway and co have to go - they are not goal threats. Brouwer is, but he's also a liability in every other area and also has to go.

I don't mind Hathaway as 13th forward type. He brings some energy, is actually a really effective penalty killer, and doesn't really hurt you that much.

Not a guy that should be counted on in the top 9 but effective enough to keep as an energy 4th liner and PK specialist.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Lazar is much like a lesser skilled version of Bennett. A kid who had his confidence destroyed by dry stretches of offensive play early in his NHL career. I think its dangerous to say he has no offensive upside. I think he showed flashes of offence even last year and could get some of his mojo back on a better line. I mean if you go back and read his scouting reports most scouts thought he had 2nd line upside, some thought more like 3rd line.

I'd be tempted to try Frolik-Backlund-Lazar as a line. I think they could be a great two-way checking line.

I agree that Lazar has upside, but I think a Shore-Lazar line would struggle to pot goals. I think at this point Shore is a highly valuable piece for his all-around game so I would choose Shore between the two.

FWIW, here are the 2016-17 Flames 5v5 expected goals leaders



I think we've seen enough of Hathaway to know that he is what he is - the wrist shot just isn't there to be much more. This was the worst SH% season of Bennett's career so we can expect his scoring to more closely track the expected goals in the future. Shore is probably what he is as well, but what he is is a very useful 4C. Backlund and Frolik grossly underpeformed like Bennett. Lazar basically performed in line with his entire career - there's no evidence he has much of a bounce back in him and you're basically hoping - which is fine if instead of Shore you have a guy like Boyle as your 4C but those are rare.

[Roof-Daddy]

I really don't want to see a Shore/Lazar combo next year.

I like both players, and I know many think they still have some untapped offensive upside, but these guys have a combined 30 goals in nearly 500 NHL games.

They are NHLers IMO, but I think counting on them to score is just asking for more of the same depth scoring issues that plagued us last season.

[Geeoff]

Baertschi is terrible. I don't know why we're pining for him.

[868904]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

The point of my post was to show how an asset like Baertschi was handled. He may have been asked to be traded, but it didn't help to have Burke running around in the media jabbing him, coaching staff... etc. Then we wonder why he had a bad attitude. Sam Bennett would probably be asked to be traded under the same condition. Does bad coaching lead to under utilization/development of these types of players? We'll see the answer next season.

Baerstchi had a bad attitude to begin with. Case in point:

1) Bitching about having to attend development camp cause he thought he was too good for it;

2) Cross checking Tim Harrison in the face after Harrison hit him hard in a development camp scrimmage. You are one of the leaders and top prospects at a development camp, act like a leader instead of a petty sniveling little bitch.

There were signs of trouble with Sven before Burke answered a simple question.

So sick of this constant rehashing and blaming of Flames management's handling of a prospect with character flaws.

The Canucks coddled him after they acquired him, has he turned into a star yet? I'm not sure they even keep him for next season. Wouldn't surprise me if they were trying to trade him right now.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I don't mind Hathaway as 13th forward type. He brings some energy, is actually a really effective penalty killer, and doesn't really hurt you that much.

Not a guy that should be counted on in the top 9 but effective enough to keep as an energy 4th liner and PK specialist.

I also like him as the 13th forward. He plays a hard game so giving him spot duty could make him more consistent. He seems to have a good run and then his play starts to fall.

I think this is the year Dube gets a shot or forces himself onto the roster. I can see him as the eventual Frolik replacement.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I really don't want to see a Shore/Lazar combo next year.

I like both players, and I know many think they still have some untapped offensive upside, but these guys have a combined 30 goals in nearly 500 NHL games.

They are NHLers IMO, but I think counting on them to score is just asking for more of the same depth scoring issues that plagued us last season.

Lets be honest. Lazar isn't even on the 4th line for a team with Cup aspirations. The guy has no hands. Ottawa was jumping for joy when we handed them a 2nd rounder for him.