The Whoas! of Dougie Hamilton

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

He takes horrible penalties, doesn’t kill penalties, and is often floating around out there. He is extremely far from a franchise Fman let alone number 1. Personally I don’t think he will ever be a franchise Dman. I also don’t believe he has hit his ceiling especially offensively. He is a solid player so keeping him is absolutely an option but in my opinion he is better used as trade bait due to his sky high value

If he's extremely far from a franchise D then why is his value sky high?

[Ryan Coke]

Good numbers.

[1991 Canadian]

Originally Posted by edslunch

If he's extremely far from a franchise D then why is his value sky high?

All the armchair stats indicate he's a great defenceman who has a very high value.

6'5". 210 lbs. 24 years old. Ontario boy. 3 more years left on a 5.75 million AAV contract. Career 55% corsi player. Led the league in NHL goals by defenceman this year. 40+ points each of the last 4 years. Stays healthy.

But if you scratch a bit beneath the surface, there are warts. He does not play like a 6'5" defenceman. He has a reputation for being a good skater, yet I consistently watch him get beat by players and take stupid stick infraction penalties. He gets caught of position frequently and takes stupid stick infraction penalties. He loses more board battles than he wins and takes stupid penalties.

If he has time in his zone, his breakout passes are often knee high or he telegraphs his pass for so long that it is easily picked off by the opposition. If he is rushed in his own zone, there is a 95 percent chance the puck is being coughed up or iced. He will not take a hit to make a play. He lacks intensity at times.

I like Hamilton. I don't think the Flames should trade him. But he is my poster child example for a player whose regular stats don't paint the entire picture. He is a great offensive defenceman, but his defensive game still needs a lot of work.

[jonkaupp]

The thread should be renamed ‘the extremely bad opinions of CPers regarding Dougie Hamilton’

[Stay Golden]

Not once have I been on the side that wished Dougie was not a Calgary Flame I don't get the hate on this kid.
How people forget he is only 24.
Tied for first in NHL in Goals
32nd for points and lead the team and did I mention he is 24 very young for a D man to have these kind of stats.

[Strange Brew]

It's easy to be disappointed with parts of Hamilton's game but you better be damn sure you have him figured out before you deal him. The right coach and support might just help him become a Norris winner.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by edslunch

If he's extremely far from a franchise D then why is his value sky high?

Imo Franchise Dman is a tier above number 1. Karlsson, Doughty, Hedmen. Dougie might Ben able to ascend to a number 1 some day buthe has a long way to go.

His stats both physically and on paper are impressive and he is still young with a good contract. He is a good player don’t get me wrong I am a fan. I just don’t think he is going to be a top 2 way Dman and we should consider trading him if we can get the piece or pieces we need up front.

Brodie is not returning the same talent as Dougie. I rather move him back with Gio and hope he rebounds than trade him for a second line forward. Dougie can return an absolute difference maker upfront.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It's easy to be disappointed with parts of Hamilton's but you better be damn sure you have him figured out before you deal him. The right coach and support might just help him become a Norris winner.

Totally agree.



I do think it’s funny that people that question him talk about his D zone play, play without the puck, compete level, but almost always acknowledge his excellent offensive stats and abilities.

Then people who don’t understand why people question him and for the hundredth time recite his scoring numbers, age, and size.

I think we can all agree he is a very good offensive D man, I don’t think anyone is questioning that. Reiterating his offensive stats is really missing the point of the discussion.

[Macindoc]

If we are insisting on trading a defenseman, I would agree that we should trade someone who is at their peak value. This would rule out Brodie and Hamonic, who had off years, and whose current trade value is much less than their future value to the team.

That leaves Hamilton, Gio and Stone. The latter isn't getting much of a return. But I wonder if after a near Norris-calibre season (would have been considered if the Flames made the playoffs), the time has come to trade Gio. His value will never be higher, and I think the team could use more vocal leadership (nothing against the guy, but he is quiet, and I think a young team that is emotionally fragile needs a bit more of a cheerleader for a captain). His play will likely regress over the next several years, until his contract becomes a bit of an anchor near the end. So if we could trade him now (maybe with a prospect) for two top nine wingers, we could help improve our team balance, shake up the leadership, and improve our long-term cap situation.

[Calgary4LIfe]

This is against the grain here, but I much preferred Brodie's vision and playmaking over Hamilton's. If there is a single defencemen on this team that I want carrying the puck up the ice, it is Brodie. He just needs a new coach IMO. I think he is way more dynamic, but his confidence has absolutely been crushed these past two seasons. If he can get back to form, magic will happen again. Hamilton makes for a better option as the trailer, Brodie makes for the better option in carrying the puck up ice, attacking the net, and creating a play.

Hamilton has a fantastic shot and has really strong skating ability. He just almost seems lazy at times in the defensive zone, and to me this is an unacceptable trait as a defencemen. There is absolutely no denying his offensive prowess though - his shot is indeed filthy. I wish he would be a bit more choosey with it - he takes a tonne of low percentage shots from a distance with no screens and the goalie set, and ends up killing the zone time. If he just becomes a bit more patient, I think he could put up even more goals/points.

With that being said, I do think that Hamilton has gotten better defensively over the last few seasons overall - it is just his propensity for making what I infer to be 'lazy' penalties still occurs too often. I wouldn't complain if they were the 'over-aggressive' penalties - cross-checking, roughing, etc., - make the forwards pay. However, the stick work (slashing, hooking, tripping) and the holding are all due to him being out of position (not reading the play? not engaged?) or not reacting quick enough.

In my opinion, the Flames should stand pat with their defence this year, and see what a new coach and system can do. Fix the transition (speed it up like they used to play under Hartley, or how even Darryl Sutter stated you need to play now in the NHL), and work on the finer points of defending in practice. This defensive group can push this team hard IMO.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This is against the grain here, but I much preferred Brodie's vision and playmaking over Hamilton's. If there is a single defencemen on this team that I want carrying the puck up the ice, it is Brodie. He just needs a new coach IMO. I think he is way more dynamic, but his confidence has absolutely been crushed these past two seasons. If he can get back to form, magic will happen again. Hamilton makes for a better option as the trailer, Brodie makes for the better option in carrying the puck up ice, attacking the net, and creating a play.

Hamilton has a fantastic shot and has really strong skating ability. He just almost seems lazy at times in the defensive zone, and to me this is an unacceptable trait as a defencemen. There is absolutely no denying his offensive prowess though - his shot is indeed filthy. I wish he would be a bit more choosey with it - he takes a tonne of low percentage shots from a distance with no screens and the goalie set, and ends up killing the zone time. If he just becomes a bit more patient, I think he could put up even more goals/points.

With that being said, I do think that Hamilton has gotten better defensively over the last few seasons overall - it is just his propensity for making what I infer to be 'lazy' penalties still occurs too often. I wouldn't complain if they were the 'over-aggressive' penalties - cross-checking, roughing, etc., - make the forwards pay. However, the stick work (slashing, hooking, tripping) and the holding are all due to him being out of position (not reading the play? not engaged?) or not reacting quick enough.

In my opinion, the Flames should stand pat with their defence this year, and see what a new coach and system can do. Fix the transition (speed it up like they used to play under Hartley, or how even Darryl Sutter stated you need to play now in the NHL), and work on the finer points of defending in practice. This defensive group can push this team hard IMO.

I agree with this. The style of play has to change. IMO this teams needs to incorporate a style similar to what Laviolette uses in NSH.

In general a more uptempo, offensive, aggressive style where the middle of the ice is used to attack through the neutral and offensive zones.

Brodie and Hamilton would flourish as I believe they would be adding that extra layer (you could throw a Gio and Kulak into the mix). The team was way, way too conservative. That's what I think as the hallmark of Gulutzan's system: methodical and conservative. They need to be dynamic and just faster.

I like Dougie a lot. I think he can improve offensively and defensively but I don't think he's going to be a banger (although I thought he did do more of that). I want to see him harder to play against in his end but different aspects develop at different times and he's extremely gifted offensively so that's what he likes to do- play offense.

I don't think they need to make a huge trade but they need more skill and speed up front but the biggest thing is change the coaching tactics or style of play.

[Dajazz]

9th overall pick. 24 years old. League leading goal scorer. 7th in Norris Voting last year. Sweetheart deal at 5.75m/year. Right Hand shot. All stats, primary and secondary (yea thats what I call advanced), are in elite territory. Oh yea, SECOND in Game Winning Goals two years in a row as well... almost forgot that one.

If he was 6'1 CP would ADORE him. Just because he's 6'5/6 or whatever he is supposed to be "me hulk, hulk smash" according to the fans.

He plays against top opposition night in and night out, at age 24, and still scoring like a boss and keeping the puck out of the net with Gio. C'mon. I get the Brouwer rage, I get the Stajan rage, I can agree on most stuff - but Hamilton - seriously?

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

If we are insisting on trading a defenseman, I would agree that we should trade someone who is at their peak value. This would rule out Brodie and Hamonic, who had off years, and whose current trade value is much less than their future value to the team.

That leaves Hamilton, Gio and Stone. The latter isn't getting much of a return. But I wonder if after a near Norris-calibre season (would have been considered if the Flames made the playoffs), the time has come to trade Gio. His value will never be higher, and I think the team could use more vocal leadership (nothing against the guy, but he is quiet, and I think a young team that is emotionally fragile needs a bit more of a cheerleader for a captain). His play will likely regress over the next several years, until his contract becomes a bit of an anchor near the end. So if we could trade him now (maybe with a prospect) for two top nine wingers, we could help improve our team balance, shake up the leadership, and improve our long-term cap situation.

Be a bold move and one that would get a good return. It's from their position of strength. Gio is a top player but he isn't getting any younger. Now would be a good time to move him and dump Brouwer and just turn the team over leadership wise to Tkachuk.

[indes]

He's 24 years old. Defensemen usually don't hit their primes until 27ish. Dougie is only going to get better defensively as he gets older, giving up on him now would be insane.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

All the armchair stats indicate he's a great defenceman who has a very high value.

6'5". 210 lbs. 24 years old. Ontario boy. 3 more years left on a 5.75 million AAV contract. Career 55% corsi player. Led the league in NHL goals by defenceman this year. 40+ points each of the last 4 years. Stays healthy.

But if you scratch a bit beneath the surface, there are warts. He does not play like a 6'5" defenceman. He has a reputation for being a good skater, yet I consistently watch him get beat by players and take stupid stick infraction penalties. He gets caught of position frequently and takes stupid stick infraction penalties. He loses more board battles than he wins and takes stupid penalties.

If he has time in his zone, his breakout passes are often knee high or he telegraphs his pass for so long that it is easily picked off by the opposition. If he is rushed in his own zone, there is a 95 percent chance the puck is being coughed up or iced. He will not take a hit to make a play. He lacks intensity at times.

I like Hamilton. I don't think the Flames should trade him. But he is my poster child example for a player whose regular stats don't paint the entire picture. He is a great offensive defenceman, but his defensive game still needs a lot of work.

I get both sides of the argument, I just find it funny when posters talk about how bad a player is but that they can get a huge return for him.

[dino7c]

lol @ people who just think you put a rookie or Brodie in that spot and don't suffer a MASSIVE drop off. I would deal him for a "Taylor Hall" but not a penny less. I am almost certain Flames management agrees.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

If he was 6'1 CP would ADORE him. Just because he's 6'5/6 or whatever he is supposed to be "me hulk, hulk smash" according to the fans.

Ha! I came to say exactly this but you beat me to it. I can't help but feel that if he wasn't so physically tall, he might get more respect around here. Imagine Brodie or Kulak putting up 50+ points, leading all D in goals and being 7th in Norris voting. They'd be up on a pedestal and be labelled a clear-cut #1 D and a franchise D to build around not only on our team, but around the league.

Instead Hamilton is tall, somewhat lanky, and isn't the most physical guy. Big players like him they often leave you wanting more which isn't fair at all to them simply because they were born with certain genetics. I want Hamilton to crush people. I want him to have an edge like Pronger. I want this, I want that with him. And all because he is 6 ft 5. But not everyone tall is born that way and we have to learn to accept him for the player he is and isn't.

Having said that, he's only 24 and really hasn't hit his prime yet. He's on a sweetheart deal and produces offensively like you want him to. Yes he does have warts in his game. But for the most part his production easily offsets that.

[jlh2640]

We are not or should not be even considering this trade.

[Galakanokis]

Hamilton definitely has warts in his game especially on the defensive side of things but the good thing is that they are mainly coachable issues. Positioning, stick work, rubbing players out. I will definitely agree that Hamilton is not physical but I don't think it is from a lack or trying or willingness I just think he has no idea how to time a hit. Or how big and strong he can actually be along the boards.

24, still growing and learning. No way you trade unless there are three significant pieces coming back, to winger, top prospect D and a 1st.

My main issue around Brodie and Hamilton is that they are far too similar on the defensive end not in a good way. I think we have the luxury of moving one depending on the return. We simply have to make room for some young talent sooner rather than later.

[CliffFletcher]

People are making a false assumption here that strong defensive play = crushing people. It doesn't. Nik Lidstrom was the most effective defensive player in the league, and he didn't crush anybody. Marc-Eduard Vlasic is one of the best defensive players in the league today and he doesn't crush anyone either.

These threads just show who people looking at the same thing can come to dramatically different conclusions. The Dougie Hamilton I see is a poor player without the puck. And he has not gotten any better in the last two years. And no, all players don't 'get it' eventually. There are defencemen who are shakey, uncommitted, and unreliable defensively when they enter the league, and they're still shakey, uncommitted, and unreliable defensively when they retire. You'd think a fanbase that witnessed the lack of development of Dion Phaneuf would recognize these signs.