Israel declares war on Hamas

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by blankall

Seriously?

Do you think those treaties were negotiated fairly? Do you justify indigenous people being pushed onto reserves that make up a fraction of a percent of the land because of these treaties? Did the indigenous people negotiate residential schools?

How do you even sign away indigenous rights like that? One person makes a decision and then the indigenous rights for all of the people and their descendants are gone forever?

Just since I am on the topic residential schools are an interesting element of treaty negotiations.

The history of residential schools is complex and sometimes contradictory. In some cases, First Nations wanted education as an aspect of treaty to help maintain economic sovereignty. Conversely, many Canadians wanted residential schools to assimilate Indigenous peoples. In the end, the residential school system was not made collaboratively or in good faith. Instead, it was governed by the ideology of Settler Colonialism.

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Maybe, just maybe, they don't slaughter and murder because they have rights?

If you were under a brutal military occupation, my guess is you also wouldn't be very happy about it.

For almost 20 years they weren't occupied and then decided to murder a bunch of civilians. Did Gazans not have rights in Gaza? If you were under a occupation you would then want to kill women and children? How do you sit there and claim moral authority over anyone, thats psychopathic behavior.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Do you just make up arguments to refute? Nice you admit Israel is guilty of taking land, though. Big step! You know collective punishment is a war crime though, right? So their is no justification to punish those in Jerusalem over the actions of Hamas. It's not "both sides" because their aren't two sides here. Not unless every civilian has lined up in full support of Hamas, and I assume you don't believe that.



I also have to assume the answer is a resounding no, you don't see it as inhumane, since you didn't answer. That just tells me and everyone else how little humanity you have left in you.

I said it's disputed, a matter for the courts. I love how all Israelis are "guilty of stealing land" but only Hamas is guilty of mass murder. Like you even try to degrade someone who just moved to Israel.

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

There was and is a robust legal framework that justifies the displacement of of Indigenous nations from their land in North America.

Because this is a Calgary based forum, I will start with Treaty 7, which is still used to define land ownership and the land based rights of Indigenous peoples. It was signed in 1877 and allowed for a peaceable construction of a trans-continental railway, and peaceable settlement. While the agreement enriched settler society it further impoverished the Blackfoot confederacy and Stoney nation, and all but ignored Metis Land rights.

In fact in Alberta, all land ownerships rights have been transferred to the Crown it was the first province to do so. finalizing their agreement in 1905.

It is Legally sound document, but morally wrong, and allowed for several on going abuses of Indigenous peoples.



Now, if you were from British Columbia, or the Provinces east of Ontario, the legal agreements of land transfer do not exist. This is why they call it unceded land. In the Maritimes they suggest that they're land ownership was won through conquest. Being that most Indigenous nations were killed ( and diseased) to near extinction there nearly 500 years ago ( see the beothuk or Huron) the legal and moral balance is more complicated.

However, In BC, it is a cluster #### because just over 100 years ago, they Britain stole the land and the legal ramifications of such have only been allowed to make it to court in any successful manner in the 1980s. Previous to then it was seen as legally sound ( but morally wrong) to consider the hereditary land rights of Nations in BC as non existent. That said. The current supreme court has a very favorable interpretation of the hereditary rights of Indigenous peoples, and the political will of Settler Society at large is less hostile than it has ever been. In the next 50 years we will see some big decisions come in that province.

If only the Palestinians would sign a treaty, maybe they should have signed one of the twenty they have been offered. Crazy how it works when a people can actually accept a peace deal and the two sides can move on hey? But nah hostages are the next best thing I guess.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

For almost 20 years they weren't occupied and then decided to murder a bunch of civilians. Did Gazans not have rights in Gaza? If you were under a occupation you would then want to kill women and children? How do you sit there and claim moral authority over anyone, thats psychopathic behavior.

First, no one is justifying the February 7 attacks.

Second, the injustices in Gaza over the past 20 years are entirely different than the injustices faced by First Nations and other indigenous people in Canada. Among other things, Gaza has been subject to a complete military blockade. It is a prison.

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

I said it's disputed, a matter for the courts. I love how all Israelis are "guilty of stealing land" but only Hamas is guilty of mass murder. Like you even try to degrade someone who just moved to Israel.

His post said "Israel" (as in the state), not Israelis.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

-snip-

I said it's disputed, a matter for the courts. I love how all Israelis are "guilty of stealing land" but only Hamas is guilty of mass murder. Like you even try to degrade someone who just moved to Israel.

-snip-

I need to correct you for misrepresenting my words, something I find reprehensible. Given you have proven to have poor reading comprehension(first timer!) I suggest you read more carefully in the future, and not misrepresent peoples use of language, as it is important. I use the word "Israel" which is the country, its policies, and its government. I specifically did not use the term "Israelis" because that would be collectively attributing an action to individuals who may or may not support it.


Furthermore, yes, only Hamas is guilty(and they are guilty) of their own actions. I do not ascribe the launching of a Hamas rocket to the 8 year old living in the building beside it, such that I can absolve my consciousness of murdering them due to guilt by proximaty. That would be monstrous and inhumane.


And this is the difference between you and me.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

You're right that family is not Hamas, but Hamas is made up of their friends, their relatives and their community. Hamas hides among them and commits non stop atrocities in their name and is then sheltered by people just like them in the same area. The people Hamas attacks are trying to survive, defend their lives while surrounded by hostile countries all the while trying to minimize civilian casualties. They aren't being ####ed over because they are Arab, they get ####ed over because they live in a war zone and their so called government would rather commit all their resources to continuing the war instead of seeking statehood and building a country of their own.

At the end of the day a house is just a ####ing house, it's not an excuse to wage a endless war and slaughter women and children.

Says it all right there.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You can repeat it hundred times, it will not become truth. The house was not theirs, and neither was the land. And it was not stolen. They were offered to live their for their lifetime and guarantees that their rents will never be terminated, yet they declined. Isn't it strange, that those Palestinian supporters never bothered to pay the rent for them?

That's my point, in any other non racist fair legal system it would be, if you live on land for 70 years that has no other owner then that land becomes yours, it is literally the basis for the phrase 'ownership is 9 tenths of the law', they are having their land stolen and given to some migrant from Brooklyn who has never ever lived in Israel ever, it is not being claimed by it's prior owner

The land is being stolen under the pretense that any land that was once owned by a Jew must be given to some other random Jew, that an Arab family that has lived there for 4 generations have to become homeless to make way from some migrant just off the boat, it is a racist law

You can be fine living in a ####ty country that does immoral things but right now most of the world is starting to see Israel as a pariah like South Africa in the 70's because of #### like this, if I was Israeli I would be ashamed of my country and worried for its future

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by Makarov

First, no one is justifying the February 7 attacks.

Second, the injustices in Gaza over the past 20 years are entirely different than the injustices faced by First Nations and other indigenous people in Canada. Among other things, Gaza has been subject to a complete military blockade. It is a prison.




His post said "Israel" (as in the state), not Israelis.

Not a prison, no one takes that nonsense seriously anymore. Prisons don't let hundreds of thousands of people out to work every day and they don't let multiple countries control their borders. Prisons also don't let the inmates self govern.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I need to correct you for misrepresenting my words, something I find reprehensible. Given you have proven to have poor reading comprehension(first timer!) I suggest you read more carefully in the future, and not misrepresent peoples use of language, as it is important. I use the word "Israel" which is the country, its policies, and its government. I specifically did not use the term "Israelis" because that would be collectively attributing an action to individuals who may or may not support it.


Furthermore, yes, only Hamas is guilty(and they are guilty) of their own actions. I do not ascribe the launching of a Hamas rocket to the 8 year old living in the building beside it, such that I can absolve my consciousness of murdering them due to guilt by proximaty. That would be monstrous and inhumane.


And this is the difference between you and me.

No one is saying the 8 year old is guilty, he is simply a casualty of war started by his countrymen. The blood is on the hands of Hamas and the people who elected them. Just like there were innocent Germans who died with the Nazis, doesn't change the fact they live in a country that started a war.


The difference between us is you hide behind your double standard to condemn a whole country for these supposed "stolen homes" and I can say there absolutely are innocent Palestinians but they can still be casualties of their own countries desire to murder their neighbors.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

The difference between us is you hide behind your double standard to condemn a whole country for these supposed "stolen homes" and I can say there absolutely are innocent Palestinians but they can still be casualties of their own countries desire to murder their neighbors.

On the topic of double-standards, do you believe that innocent Israelis can be casualties of their own country's desire to murder its neighbours?

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

Seriously?

Do you think those treaties were negotiated fairly? Do you justify indigenous people being pushed onto reserves that make up a fraction of a percent of the land because of these treaties? Did the indigenous people negotiate residential schools?

How do you even sign away indigenous rights like that? One person makes a decision and then the indigenous rights for all of the people and their descendants are gone forever?

I'm sorry are we talking about the Balfour Declaration and its view towards the Palestinians who were living there?

Oh no wait, you must be talking about the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Not a prison, no one takes that nonsense seriously anymore. Prisons don't let hundreds of thousands of people out to work every day and they don't let multiple countries control their borders. Prisons also don't let the inmates self govern.

For you see, the sign of a nation's sovereignty is that multiple countries are in control of their borders.

Plus, we give them day passes!

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Not a prison, no one takes that nonsense seriously anymore. Prisons don't let hundreds of thousands of people out to work every day and they don't let multiple countries control their borders. Prisons also don't let the inmates self govern.

No one is saying the 8 year old is guilty, he is simply a casualty of war started by his countrymen. The blood is on the hands of Hamas and the people who elected them. Just like there were innocent Germans who died with the Nazis, doesn't change the fact they live in a country that started a war.

The difference between us is you hide behind your double standard to condemn a whole country for these supposed "stolen homes" and I can say there absolutely are innocent Palestinians but they can still be casualties of their own countries desire to murder their neighbors.

Right, so you believe collective punishment is acceptable. You are OK with it. You can just admit you support war crimes, it's less wordy.

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

For you see, the sign of a nation's sovereignty is that multiple countries are in control of their borders.

Plus, we give them day passes!

Oh damn Canada is a prison too, someone controls the border and I can leave but there is a border there so it's a prison!

Originally Posted by Makarov

On the topic of double-standards, do you believe that innocent Israelis can be casualties of their own country's desire to murder its neighbours?

Yup and if Israel were the ones to start a conflict and civilians die as a result of the combatants being targeted they would hold responsibility. Crazy how that works right? The difference is Israel doesnt target civilians and Hamas primarility targets civilians.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Right, so you believe collective punishment is acceptable. You are OK with it. You can just admit you support war crimes, it's less wordy.

It's not collective punishment, casualties are a fact of war. When combatants use their fellow countrymen as meat shields civilians die too. If Israel were to target civilians intentionally you might have a point but right now your grasping at straws.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I claimed that they were living in a house that they don't own and didn't pay the rent. Which is literally what is written in the article. I understand it hurts that pro-palestine crowd posted a link to a pro-palestine source, that actually proves Israel point. So you are scrambling to get out of this embarrassment.

Lol. It was seventy years man.

In a civilized country, if you build your fence too far inside your property line and your neighbours throw some lawn chairs down, they can claim ownership after 10-20 years - let alone living in a house for SEVENTY years.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Oh damn Canada is a prison too, someone controls the border and I can leave but there is a border there so it's a prison!

You can't possibly not see the distinction between Canada's sovereignty and Gaza's "sovereignty". Canada decides who and what enters and leaves its borders. Gaza does not. This is simple stuff.


[QUOTE=Skootenbeeten;9108888]
Yup and if Israel were the ones to start a conflict and civilians die as a result of the combatants being targeted they would hold responsibility. Crazy how that works right? The difference is Israel doesnt target civilians and Hamas primarility targets civilians.

Interesting. So, in your view, if Israel triggered the broader Gaza-Israel conflict by, say, expelling or otherwise forcing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to flee their homes in Israel and settle in the Gaza strip, Israel is responsible for all of the civilian and combatant Israeli deaths (and injuries) that have followed?

(NOTE: I don't take this position at all, as it is hopelessly simplistic. I'm just trying to clarify your position).

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Makarov

You can't possibly not see the distinction between Canada's sovereignty and Gaza's "sovereignty". Canada decides who and what enters and leaves its borders. Gaza does not. This is simple stuff.

Interesting. So, in your view, if Israel triggered the broader Gaza-Israel conflict by, say, expelling or otherwise forcing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to flee their homes in Israel and settle in the Gaza strip, Israel is responsible for all of the civilian and combatant Israeli deaths (and injuries) that have followed?

(NOTE: I don't take this position at all, as it is hopelessly simplistic. I'm just trying to clarify your position).

I don’t know why you’re bothering. The poster didn’t even know Gaza and West Bank were different areas up until a few posts ago.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

The difference is Israel doesnt target civilians and Hamas primarility targets civilians.

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

If Israel were to target civilians intentionally you might have a point but right now your grasping at straws.

Intentional killing of an eight year old girl after she was used to lure in paramedics.
Intentional killing of the paramedics.
Intentional killing of an elderly lady clearly waving a white flag.
Intentional killing of sick, injured, and newborns in hospital.
Intentional killing of thousands by death by starvation through refusing to allow food through and have their youth partake in the mass killing by participating in destroying food aid.

Takes a special sort of twisted mind to try and claim none of the slaughtered was intentional.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

You can be fine living in a ####ty country that does immoral things but right now most of the world is starting to see Israel as a pariah like South Africa in the 70's because of #### like this, if I was Israeli I would be ashamed of my country and worried for its future

I disagree on this pretty strongly. All over the world very strongly pro-Israel governments are being elected into power, and that will likely include Canada in the next election. These governments also are not shy about their pro-Israel stance.

What is going on is the issue is more polarized (although it's always been) and it's pretty easy to believe everyone is anti-Israel depending on what kind of media you consume.

[Zary's-Mustache]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/06/world...nd-digvid-intl

Imagine the outrage if this was the other way around....

Israelis chanting "may your village burn" while attacking shopkeepers and journalists while walking in Palestinian neighborhoods.

[Fuzz]

Oh look, decades of hate leading to more hate. Keep the cycle going, that'll totally help things. Way to become what you despise.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/06/world...nd-digvid-intl

Imagine the outrage if this was the other way around....

Israelis chanting "may your village burn" while attacking shopkeepers and journalists while walking in Palestinian neighborhoods.

Are you saying that Palestinians have never done something similar? People are saying worse all over US campuses, so I doubt we have to "imagine" anything.