American Politics 4.0 - Orangeyou Glad He’s Back?

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

But maybe they are just all really stupid? Like, they fall for the same bull#### over and over, compromise their "values" constantly because they buy bull####, justify it with nonsense, and frankly have shown zero evidence they aren't just really stupid? So maybe we should start there. Because not recognizing reality, no matter how painful it is, makes it tough to respond in any meaningful way.

The same concept of American exceptionalism that keeps them from accepting the metric system causes them to refuse universal health care or paid maternity leave. They’re told from birth that their way is the best way so when someone like Trump literally hugs the flag a lot of them fall for his bull####, even reasonably smart people. That jingoistic brainwashing works.

America also has lots of people with money who want to keep as much as they can and acquire even more. They’ll do anything to do that, even if it means supporting a piece of #### like Trump.

And like I said, the Democrats suck, and lots of people didn’t get helped by them so they voted for change. Sounds dumb but it’s happening everywhere lately.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Depends on how people disagree. If they personally attack and dogpile those who they disagree with, that’s not really good faith discourse, is it?

I don’t know. At the end of the day though there’s a large portion of the population that can’t seem to defend their views any other way. I guess I just take the approach that I’m not going to let cry babies or people acting in bad faith dictate what I say or do.

It’s perfectly normal for people to not want to be subjected to personal attacks.

100% agree, but someone else’s undesirable reaction to even the most rational argument is completely out of our control.

I’m confident most of the posters here who say ‘suck it up, sunshine’ don’t post on forums where they would be the ones being personally attacked by the majority. That’s why echo chambers form - it’s human nature.

Umm…did you forget who you were responding to here?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by DownInFlames

The same concept of American exceptionalism that keeps them from accepting the metric system causes them to refuse universal health care or paid maternity leave. They’re told from birth that their way is the best way so when someone like Trump literally hugs the flag a lot of them fall for his bull####, even reasonably smart people. That jingoistic brainwashing works.

America also has lots of people with money who want to keep as much as they can and acquire even more. They’ll do anything to do that, even if it means supporting a piece of #### like Trump.

And like I said, the Democrats suck, and lots of people didn’t get helped by them so they voted for change. Sounds dumb but it’s happening everywhere lately.

OK, ya, sorry. Stupid or selfish.

And yes, the democrats continue to suck, but the people had a choice and they chose Trump. Now, either the Democrats are somehow worse than Trump, or the people are selfish and/or stupid. And the democrats are not worse than Trump, so...

[missdpuck]

Yes. The brainwashing starts early. This is the greatest country on earth; don’t listen to all those other countries. They’re just a bunch of commies who want to see us destroyed.

Well, that’s great because now they’ve invited the worst of the worst to finish the job.

The promise of upward mobility and worship of money is strong. Of course, upward mobility is a myth. It’s more like crabs in a bucket. I can’t do that; neither can you. Or, only the rich can do that; don’t even try. And for a good part that’s true. Jobs, Bezos and Gates, for example, didn’t exactly start out poor. The classism is strong here.

So who does move up? Maybe some poor slob with nothing to lose. The kid from Pahokee whose parents throw everything behind the pursuit of an NFL career.


That’s a narrow viewpoint, but it’s what I’ve experienced here in Florida. I had 2 coworkers at the post office who drive Bentleys to work, courtesy of successful NFL relatives.

This whole celebrity-as-president thing is just done reflected glory, like groupies following a band around but ignoring the misogynistic lyrics and posturing.

Everything is a contradiction from the start.

[blender]

Has anyone read A People's History of the United States?

I read it during the election and before the the inauguration. For me there wasn't anything groundbreaking in there, but if you believe that the author is correct in his view of America, this current situation is a logical outcome.
One point he makes that I found salient was that America is unique in history as a society that is specifically designed to funnel wealth upwards and marginalized the rest, but unlike many other countries that have been governed on the same principle, America has always had enough wealth to spread among the professional and middle classes such that the dream of upward mobility remains powerful and the chance of a people's revolution remains unlikely.

It will be interesting to see if that balance can continue under this current regime.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by blender

Has anyone read A People's History of the United States?

I read it during the election and before the the inauguration. For me there wasn't anything groundbreaking in there, but if you believe that the author is correct in his view of America, this current situation is a logical outcome.
One point he makes that I found salient was that America is unique in history as a society that is specifically designed to funnel wealth upwards and marginalized the rest, but unlike many other countries that have been governed on the same principle, America has always had enough wealth to spread among the professional and middle classes such that the dream of upward mobility remains powerful and the chance of a people's revolution remains unlikely.

It will be interesting to see if that balance can continue under this current regime.

I think it's easy to forget that there HAVE been revolutions in the US. Civil War. Workers rights. Anti-Trust. New Deal. Civil rights. Women's rights. None of that was just given to the people by virtue of being in the United States. In fact they've been systematically and sometimes violently opposed the entire time with an implemented counter-revolution via the tax code and "trickle down economics". It has been fought for all along the way and will have to continue to be fought for again. People forget the kind of social disruption that was necessary in order to get things like social security and all the other things listed above. Mass strikes. Political violence going in all directions. Food and fuel shortages. They're not myths that live in history books.

The worst thing about the Jan 6 rioters and the Canadian Truck Blockade is that they diminished the fact that there ARE legitimate reasons to march on your government. Those were not it.

[blender]

@Coach
No doubt there has been plenty of opposition to the status quo during the course of American history; the book I referred to spends plenty of ink on it, but despite all the actions you referenced, none have succeeded since the birth of the nation which occurred as a result of the only revolution that was ever successful.
Mass protests, general strikes, movements for equality and rights, can be precursors to a revolution, but they are not the same thing.

As for your comment on Jan 6, etc. I agree 100%. It's a shame when bad actors give true revolutionaries a bad name!

[Coach]

I wouldn't say none have succeeded. Those things people were striking for and fighting for were eventually implemented. Just because it faces opposition and very stiff opposition and potential or even real rollbacks now, doesn't mean they failed. It means it's time to fight for them again. That people need to be reminded why they are important because they've been taken for granted by the generations since. To consider them failed just because the current President is an insane idiot and yes a lot of people are supporting it, no doubt it's a challenging time, to me is not the way. It's only failed if good people decide to give up and go home.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

Yes. The brainwashing starts early. This is the greatest country on earth; don’t listen to all those other countries. They’re just a bunch of commies who want to see us destroyed.

Well, that’s great because now they’ve invited the worst of the worst to finish the job.

The promise of upward mobility and worship of money is strong. Of course, upward mobility is a myth. It’s more like crabs in a bucket. I can’t do that; neither can you. Or, only the rich can do that; don’t even try. And for a good part that’s true. Jobs, Bezos and Gates, for example, didn’t exactly start out poor. The classism is strong here.

So who does move up? Maybe some poor slob with nothing to lose. The kid from Pahokee whose parents throw everything behind the pursuit of an NFL career.


That’s a narrow viewpoint, but it’s what I’ve experienced here in Florida. I had 2 coworkers at the post office who drive Bentleys to work, courtesy of successful NFL relatives.

This whole celebrity-as-president thing is just done reflected glory, like groupies following a band around but ignoring the misogynistic lyrics and posturing.

Everything is a contradiction from the start.

America, while a beautiful and impressive place (built mostly on the backs of far better and more integrous people that preceded the current crop), gives me an "ick" on a deep level. I think you touched on why with some of the things you describe.

I think part of it is that I hate stereotyping people because I feel like people are more complex than bucket A or bucket B. But in America, many people live up to every aspect of every popular stereotype.

I don't know what to call the effect that has on me. It's like a social form of "uncanny valley". Seeing that people down there exist and behave exactly as they're stereotyped on TV and movies, which are meant to be satirical. But down there, it's real life. Their unwavering devotion to certain figures and beliefs is.. a little jarring. Zach Galifinakis' character in The Campaign is literally some people working in government, especially in southern states. America is weird. The whole MAGA movement is too. It's so stupid, you can't believe something that's so poorly defined where people donning the swag can't even tell you what the great means and when America last had it can be real, and that people continue to pledge themselves to it. And yet it is, and they do.

I appreciate the diversity up here in Canada because you have so many worldviews and beliefs that come together in one place, and it offers the opportunity to learn and observe from different cultural perspectives and have healthy discussions and debate. I can borrow what resonates with my values, and there lots of exposure to people who've seen other parts of the world and have the wisdom of living through things that we're mostly sheltered from here.

It's refreshing to have the opportunity to essentially become whoever you want and regardless of what that is, a group of people here will understand and resonate with you. There is a microcosm of the US that's growing here, unfortunately. But as long as we remain a separate country I doubt we'll go full-US because of our diversity.

America may call the echo chambers, tribalism, over saturation of narrow beliefs and worship of money and superficial things they're steeped in "freedom" but these days it looks to be anything but.

It's only freedom for the privileged, and even they are extremely predictable in less than savory ways with how they use it. It's a never ending power struggle that knows no end nor bounds. These billionaires with more than generational wealth now infiltrating government is just confirmation of that.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by DownInFlames

The same concept of American exceptionalism that keeps them from accepting the metric system causes them to refuse universal health care or paid maternity leave. They’re told from birth that their way is the best way so when someone like Trump literally hugs the flag a lot of them fall for his bull####, even reasonably smart people. That jingoistic brainwashing works.

America also has lots of people with money who want to keep as much as they can and acquire even more. They’ll do anything to do that, even if it means supporting a piece of #### like Trump.

And like I said, the Democrats suck, and lots of people didn’t get helped by them so they voted for change. Sounds dumb but it’s happening everywhere lately.

This actually may be the saving grace in all of this.
The amount of super rich, Billionaires etc in America is so large, that they can't let the country completely tank into isolation & cutting off outside markets.

[WideReceiver]

I waver between optimism (it’ll be fine) and despondency (Trump will destroy the U.S. and pull a Putin and attack Canada). Right now I’ve moved over to the severe negative side. Maybe I have to curtail the podcasts on U.S. politics. It’s f’ng depressing. Someone talk me off the ledge.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Coach

I wouldn't say none have succeeded. Those things people were striking for and fighting for were eventually implemented. Just because it faces opposition and very stiff opposition and potential or even real rollbacks now, doesn't mean they failed. It means it's time to fight for them again. That people need to be reminded why they are important because they've been taken for granted by the generations since. To consider them failed just because the current President is an insane idiot and yes a lot of people are supporting it, no doubt it's a challenging time, to me is not the way. It's only failed if good people decide to give up and go home.

I'm using revolution in the strict sense of overthrowing the government.

I'm not suggesting that the movements you are referencing didn't have value or didn't acheive certain goals; they obviously did.

Interestingly, Zinn writes about all of those movements and argues that in all cases the government-industrial complex of the time either co-opted them or reacted to them with specific measures to placate and pacify the movement while ensuring the overarching structure design to move wealth upwards remained intact.

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by WideReceiver

I waver between optimism (it’ll be fine) and despondency (Trump will destroy the U.S. and pull a Putin and attack Canada). Right now I’ve moved over to the severe negative side. Maybe I have to curtail the podcasts on U.S. politics. It’s f’ng depressing. Someone talk me off the ledge.

The U.S. is definitely trying to crush us economically. But I don't believe it's going to work. We're going to diversify and we're gonna get through this together by working with our other democratic allies around the world and also by getting rid of inter-provincial trade barriers. Yea, it's gonna suck for a while, but I believe we're going to survive this and be a stronger country as a result.


All of this stuff has been tough on my mental health as well, and it's been giving me occasional tension headaches. It just feels like every day we're being bombarded with insanity and the constant doom-scrolling is not healthy. Other than watching the National on CBC yesterday, I decided to completely shut off the news this weekend and just do things that make me happy: Listening to music, watching movies, going for walks, spending time with family. I recommend everybody do the same. It's good to stay informed, but do yourself a favour and just turn off the crazy for a couple of days and you'll feel a lot better.


The world is going to get through this. I believe it in my heart.

[Winsor_Pilates]

I also shut things off the last few days.
Went golfing Thursday, been busy and productive at work, had some good workouts. Feeling very good today.
You have to step away; this is difficult on mental health for sure.

Here's a clip from a much longer podcast with Mo Gawdat:
https://www.tiktok.com/@doac.clips/v...26313926200609

Most of the time, we worry about things we actually can't do a lot about.
The brain will consume what you feed it.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by blender

I'm using revolution in the strict sense of overthrowing the government.

I'm not suggesting that the movements you are referencing didn't have value or didn't acheive certain goals; they obviously did.

Interestingly, Zinn writes about all of those movements and argues that in all cases the government-industrial complex of the time either co-opted them or reacted to them with specific measures to placate and pacify the movement while ensuring the overarching structure design to move wealth upwards remained intact.

I totally agree with that, and while I'm not against all-out revolution for a proper cause, I do think something that was unique to America was the ability to challenge that at all. In a lot of other places completely overthrowing the government is basically the only way to change anything. Because most places are autocracies in some fashion. You're not allowed to march in the streets for anything, not your pay, not your rights, not your voice nothing. The idea that you can lobby your government for change and that it can happen via change in law and not complete government overthrow is a good idea. Doesn't mean it's a perfect idea that will work all the time and that human greed won't interfere.

It's up to us to stay vigilant of the powers that be because they will always try to hang on. I think a good part of the people who were adults through the 80's and 90's and are now older people forgot about how insidious those forces are and shrugged along with corruption and obvious law subversion thinking that the good economy they were living in was off the backs of Reaganonmics when it was really just growth in generational wealth created by their parents on the backs of post WWII social rebuilding programs that gave them homes and education and civil rights. Meanwhile Reaganomics slowly (well actually rather rapidly in economic terms) funnelled money out of their pockets, away from TRUE investment in their own economy via education, infrastructure, child care, medical care, and into the hands of what now is like 10 corporate entities while eroding the fundamentals their parents worked so hard for. Something that would have never been allowed to exist under the law during their parents time and would have been rioted against long before it even got to that point.

Now I really think it's going to be up to us (the kids of the Boomers now becoming 30-40 year olds) to start picking our s*** up and do some real work against this stuff that's not in the form of Instagram Activism (or posts on forums for a little self aware shot). We have to start usurping their positions of power legitimately (ie start becoming the government we want to be) or we're going to have to face probably opposing some forms of extreme hardship and violence.

[WideReceiver]

Originally Posted by direwolf

The U.S. is definitely trying to crush us economically. But I don't believe it's going to work. We're going to diversify and we're gonna get through this together by working with our other democratic allies around the world and also by getting rid of inter-provincial trade barriers. Yea, it's gonna suck for a while, but I believe we're going to survive this and be a stronger country as a result.


All of this stuff has been tough on my mental health as well, and it's been giving me occasional tension headaches. It just feels like every day we're being bombarded with insanity and the constant doom-scrolling is not healthy. Other than watching the National on CBC yesterday, I decided to completely shut off the news this weekend and just do things that make me happy: Listening to music, watching movies, going for walks, spending time with family. I recommend everybody do the same. It's good to stay informed, but do yourself a favour and just turn off the crazy for a couple of days and you'll feel a lot better.


The world is going to get through this. I believe it in my heart.

The poor folks I feel really bad for are the lower-income Canadians who are barely surviving now. We’ll be fine but our nephew can’t make it. You’ve seen the study that 48% of us are one missed paycheque from financial crisis or having to borrow for daily needs. I fear what will happen to those on the edge.

[blender]

@Coach
I would agree with you on much of your last post for sure.
I think a big part of the reason the US is in the predicament they are in now has a lot to do with apathy towards the democratic process disengagement from politics in a constructive way. Obviously, I worry about that here in Canada as well.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

These four years are really going to become a test of discipline to stay away from the news and ignore Trump's latest antics for peace of mind.

Maybe the next hot trend will be 'media cleanses' with how it's becoming straight propaganda with Trump suing stations that oppose or disagree with him.

It would be really amazing if people banded together and left X and just tuned out his rambling and threats with all the back and forth.

Without an audience Trump loses a lot of his influence to inflict fear, confusion, etc.

[Mr.Coffee]

One thing that’s kind of crazy is that, really, at the end of the day, most / all of this is due to one guy. One guy everyone knows is a piece of ####, and should die, and is doing it for the exclusive benefit of himself. Not Americans. Like- there’s NO WAY the average American believes this guy is working for them, or any other American is there?

When you take a step back and think big picture- it is truly crazy that we build a society and societal structure that enables one person to galvanize a support base that they can then leverage to destroy the original envisioned state structure plus destroy many, many, many millions of other people’s lives (economically or otherwise).

Gotta think human beings can do better generally speaking but I think the only way it organize this check would be for draconian measures and anytime a person exhibits power hungry tendencies it needs outright rejection (including supporters). The fact we’re all sitting around wondering if this could bubble into WW3 and the death of millions and millions worldwide is actually quite nonsensical when you think about it. As if it’s some kind of birthright for Trump to be able to inflict this.

[Fuzz]

He should have been rejected as a cooky sexagenarian when he was babbling on about birth certificates. Instead they made him president.