Israel declares war on Hamas

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

“Blunder” “desperate” what are you even talking about? That was my first read of the article, where did I “blunder”.” You ignored 90% of it because it didn’t fit your worldview and hilariously misinterpreted the importance of the one line, and now you’re waving your hands around with “see?? see?? they didn’t own it!!!” like an idiot.

It doesn’t matter if they have the papers, the homes were built for those families and they lived in them. They were their homes. East Jerusalem is occupied territory and it is illegal to displace people in occupied territory, and could constitute a war crime.

“Oh well they didn’t have the papers!” is the dumbest possible way to excuse that. A literal child could understand the issue better than you have.

Now, read the NY Times article and prove you’re better than you’ve shown.

How in the world? That's literally the opposite of what the article says. And you claim it's me who can't read.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

You literally said stopped paying the rent. Stopped means someone started paying rent and then stopped.

You were making it seem like it was a landlord tenant dispute which is just total BS and u know it.

I always discuss things fairly and objectively. The article says that they were not paying the rent and refused to do so when ordered. It doesn't make clear whether they never paid the rent to begin with or were paying for some time and then stopped. In this lack of clarity I stood true to my principles of fairness and objectivity and chose the interpretation that favors the Palestinian families more, even though I am Israeli. If your point is that they never ever paid for living in the house that they don't own - including to Jordanese, not only Israelis - this make them look even worse.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I'm still waiting for a quote from the original Al Jazeera article that claims - let alone proves - that they owned that house. If not, how can you call it a theft? How can you claim an "illegal displacement" if they were asked to either pay the rent or move out? Isn't it legal practice in all countries? It's not about papers and technicalities, they in fact never owned it. All they have is that they were allegedly promised to own it "after three years"and that alleged promise was made before 1967. I will not move to read another article until we are done discussing the first one.

Maybe you should learn what is and isn’t legal under international law and what displacement means. Until you do, there isn’t really anything discuss. And I’m actually shocked you don’t, since you pretend to be knowledgeable about these issues.

If the people who the homes were built for and who lived in the homes didn’t own them, then who did between 1967 and when they were kicked out half a century later? Use your brain here.

[afc wimbledon]

Ok so the Coles notes version is the Palestinians have lived in the houses given them by Jordan (who controlled the West Bank) since 1957, Israel took over the area in 1967 and the Palestinians have lived there ever since on land assumed by Israel to be theirs, several years ago an American settler organization argued that the land was owned by some unnamed and long dead Jew before 1948 and so they should be evicted to make way for some random American Jews who have nothing to do with the land, have never owned it and have just arrived from New York, a heavily biased court ordered these people out of the homes they have lived in since 1957 because they are arab.

As I have said before, Israel has the power to treat these families like #### and steal their homes but if I was Jewish Pointman I would be ashamed of my country and faith for this, it is just theft

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Maybe you should learn what is and isn’t legal under international law and what displacement means. Until you do, there isn’t really anything discuss. And I’m actually shocked you don’t, since you pretend to be knowledgeable about these issues.

If the people who the homes were built for and who lived in the homes didn’t own them, then who did between 1967 and when they were kicked out half a century later? Use your brain here.

Once again confusing private ownership of the land vs state that governs it. The story goes like this:

UN built homes for refugees in East Jerusalem, when it was a part of Jordan.
UN never registered ownership of those homes in the name of refugees.
Now Israelis come over and say that the land on which homes were built belongs to some citizen of Israel.
The families try to counter that by some papers produced from archive of Ankara.

Ankara is a Turkey city, which means that the transaction in the paper was made during Ottoman empire times that were before UN even existed. This means that UN never bought out the land in question from the Jew who owned it. UN just built houses on the land owned by a Jew. Otherwise, the lawyers could produce or at least claim a paper that indicates a transaction from Jewish owner into UN. Or from at least from anyone who pretends to be the owner into UN. Instead, all they have is something from Ottoman empire. I'm talking private ownership here, not statehood governance. UN effectively built houses on someone's land without buying the land first.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Ok so the Coles notes version is the Palestinians have lived in the houses given them by Jordan (who controlled the West Bank) since 1957, Israel took over the area in 1967 and the Palestinians have lived there ever since on land assumed by Israel to be theirs, several years ago an American settler organization argued that the land was owned by some unnamed and long dead Jew before 1948 and so they should be evicted to make way for some random American Jews who have nothing to do with the land, have never owned it and have just arrived from New York, a heavily biased court ordered these people out of the homes they have lived in since 1957 because they are arab.

As I have said before, Israel has the power to treat these families like #### and steal their homes but if I was Jewish Pointman I would be ashamed of my country and faith for this, it is just theft

When you say "given to them by Jordan" you mistake state control of lands with private ownership. There are no papers that claim, let alone prove, that the land in question was ever bought by either UN or Jordanese people.

And "given to them" is a wrong wording. Houses were never given to them, families were merely allowed to live there. They never owned houses.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

When you say "given to them by Jordan" you mistake state control of lands with private ownership. There are no papers that claim, let alone prove, that the land in question was ever bought by either UN or Jordanese people.

And "given to them" is a wrong wording. Houses were never given to them, families were merely allowed to live there. They never owned houses.

They have lived in the homes that Jordan, who's land they were on, gave for 70 years, now if the descendants of the pre 1948 Jewish family that was supposed to have owned in pre WW2 came along with some deeds proving their ownership I would agree that it sucks but that was fair, but that is not what has happened, their homes are being stolen to be given to some guy just off the boat from New York who has no connection in any way to the land.

In any reasonable legal system, in any fair legal system land that has been lived on for 70 years by the same families, land that has no other claim to prior ownership would be deeded to them, under English Common Law the land would have been given to them after 20 years, this is the state of Israel ####ing some poor family over because they are Arab, nothing more, it's your country Pointman, if you are happy living wth a Government that just steals families land because they are arab I guess you are in the right country but if I was Israeli I would hang my head in shame, I would protest the utter depravity of the act

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Once again confusing private ownership of the land vs state that governs it. The story goes like this:

UN built homes for refugees in East Jerusalem, when it was a part of Jordan.
UN never registered ownership of those homes in the name of refugees.
Now Israelis come over and say that the land on which homes were built belongs to some citizen of Israel.
The families try to counter that by some papers produced from archive of Ankara.

Ankara is a Turkey city, which means that the transaction in the paper was made during Ottoman empire times that were before UN even existed. This means that UN never bought out the land in question from the Jew who owned it. UN just built houses on the land owned by a Jew. Otherwise, the lawyers could produce or at least claim a paper that indicates a transaction from Jewish owner into UN. Or from at least from anyone who pretends to be the owner into UN. Instead, all they have is something from Ottoman empire. I'm talking private ownership here, not statehood governance. UN effectively built houses on someone's land without buying the land first.

AFC said it best already, but I would be truly embarrassed and disgusted with my neighbours if I were you. Any good, reasonable person can see the issues here and wouldn’t bend over backwards to dismiss them.

Read the article I provided. The only reason not too would be that you’re scared of a legitimate source challenging your far right, ultranationalist world view.

[afc wimbledon]

I will add this Pointman, I know you have escaped Russia so the idea that as a Citizen you have a responsibility to control the moral path your country takes may seem ludicrous, and I am equally aware Israel can and routinely does treat Arabs like dirt, I get supreme crap on this site for pointing out that Israel is completely in charge and can and will kill tens of thousands of Gazans anytime it wants and there is no point in the rest of us really debating it.

But you are Israeli, this is your country, unlike the rest of us you have to act as the moral compass for Israel, not because it is the right thing to do (which it is) but because the more Israel kills and evicts its way into Russian and pre Mandela South African moral status, the more the world will be repulsed, the more sadly Jews all over the world that have nothing to do with this will suffer, the more your kids will have to suit up and get shot at as they reach 18, the harder you will find getting offshore contracts for programming gigs and the like, Israel can do what the hell it wants, kill every arab that so much as objects to having everything taken from them, there is nothing the world can do, but that doesn't mean there won't be consequences economically for Israel and youand your kids.

You are, ironically, the only person on this discusion that matters, it's your country, dont move from one bags of dicks country only to let your new home become the same kind of bag of dicks, do something_

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I will add this Pointman, I know you have escaped Russia so the idea that as a Citizen you have a responsibility to control the moral path your country takes may seem ludicrous, and I am equally aware Israel can and routinely does treat Arabs like dirt, I get supreme crap on this site for pointing out that Israel is completely in charge and can and will kill tens of thousands of Gazans anytime it wants and there is no point in the rest of us really debating it.

But you are Israeli, this is your country, unlike the rest of us you have to act as the moral compass for Israel, not because it is the right thing to do (which it is) but because the more Israel kills and evicts its way into Russian and pre Mandela South African moral status, the more the world will be repulsed, the more sadly Jews all over the world that have nothing to do with this will suffer, the more your kids will have to suit up and get shot at as they reach 18, the harder you will find getting offshore contracts for programming gigs and the like, Israel can do what the hell it wants, kill every arab that so much as objects to having everything taken from them, there is nothing the world can do, but that doesn't mean there won't be consequences economically for Israel and youand your kids.

You are, ironically, the only person on this discusion that matters, it's your country, dont move from one bags of dicks country only to let your new home become the same kind of bag of dicks, do something_

Ya and the more Palestinians kill and rape and kidnap the more they become the victim apparently. It's so odd how "being treated like dirt" and "stealing homes" is justification for wholesale slaughter. Apparently 30 years of suicide bombing is perfectly fine because someone took land that might not be theirs. Don't tell the indigenous in the rest of the world they can just murder anyone they think is in "their land" and still get support.



Imagine talking about "moral status" when you're still finding the bodies of hostages and every time there is a ceasefire it gets broken by Hamas murdering even more civilians.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Ya and the more Palestinians kill and rape and kidnap the more they become the victim apparently. It's so odd how "being treated like dirt" and "stealing homes" is justification for wholesale slaughter. Apparently 30 years of suicide bombing is perfectly fine because someone took land that might not be theirs. Don't tell the indigenous in the rest of the world they can just murder anyone they think is in "their land" and still get support.



Imagine talking about "moral status" when you're still finding the bodies of hostages and every time there is a ceasefire it gets broken by Hamas murdering even more civilians.

Yes but this not Hamas, this is just some poor arab family having their house stolen by the state of Israel and if you and Israel have lost the ability to see the difference between how you treat Hamas, the guilty, and how you treat some random wholly innocent family then you and Israel have lost your soul.

They arent being bombed because they were 50 foot away from a Hamas weapons dump or something understandable if still a bit morally dubious, no they are just having their houses stolen because Israel has the power to #### over an arab family for no reason, just because they are arab

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Yes but this not Hamas, this is just some poor arab family having their house stolen by the state of Israel and if you and Israel have lost the ability to see the difference between how you treat Hamas, the guilty, and how you treat some random wholly innocent family then you and Israel have lost your soul.

They arent being bombed because they were 50 foot away from a Hamas weapons dump or something understandable if still a bit morally dubious, no they are just having their houses stolen because Israel has the power to #### over an arab family for no reason, just because they are arab

You're right that family is not Hamas, but Hamas is made up of their friends, their relatives and their community. Hamas hides among them and commits non stop atrocities in their name and is then sheltered by people just like them in the same area. The people Hamas attacks are trying to survive, defend their lives while surrounded by hostile countries all the while trying to minimize civilian casualties. They aren't being ####ed over because they are Arab, they get ####ed over because they live in a war zone and their so called government would rather commit all their resources to continuing the war instead of seeking statehood and building a country of their own.

At the end of the day a house is just a ####ing house, it's not an excuse to wage a endless war and slaughter women and children.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

You're right that family is not Hamas, but Hamas is made up of their friends, their relatives and their community. Hamas hides among them and commits non stop atrocities in their name and is then sheltered by people just like them in the same area. The people Hamas attacks are trying to survive, defend their lives while surrounded by hostile countries all the while trying to minimize civilian casualties. They aren't being ####ed over because they are Arab, they get ####ed over because they live in a war zone and their so called government would rather commit all their resources to continuing the war instead of seeking statehood and building a country of their own.

At the end of the day a house is just a ####ing house, it's not an excuse to wage a endless war and slaughter women and children.

They live in the west bank, nothing to do with Hamas at all, in fact an area where the Palestinian Authority has tried to cooperate with Israel, and I am not saying this house is an excuse for anything, although you seem to think that ####ing over random innocent arabs is just fine because of what Hamas does in a wholly seperate region

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

They live in the west bank, nothing to do with Hamas at all, in fact an area where the Palestinian Authority has tried to cooperate with Israel, and I am not saying this house is an excuse for anything, although you seem to think that ####ing over random innocent arabs is just fine because of what Hamas does in a wholly seperate region

So settle the borders once and for all, negotiate a peace treaty instead of shooting down every single one and this wouldn't be a problem and you could use the law instead of war. Accept that right of return will never be on the table and move on. Palestine had been offered statehood almost 20 times. But yes that family will still suffer because innocent people suffer in every conflict across time and when it comes to land that has changed hands 50 times it's not that simple.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

They have lived in the homes that Jordan, who's land they were on, gave for 70 years, now if the descendants of the pre 1948 Jewish family that was supposed to have owned in pre WW2 came along with some deeds proving their ownership I would agree that it sucks but that was fair, but that is not what has happened, their homes are being stolen to be given to some guy just off the boat from New York who has no connection in any way to the land.

In any reasonable legal system, in any fair legal system land that has been lived on for 70 years by the same families, land that has no other claim to prior ownership would be deeded to them, under English Common Law the land would have been given to them after 20 years, this is the state of Israel ####ing some poor family over because they are Arab, nothing more, it's your country Pointman, if you are happy living wth a Government that just steals families land because they are arab I guess you are in the right country but if I was Israeli I would hang my head in shame, I would protest the utter depravity of the act

So, you no longer claim theft, right? Those families never owned homes, nor land. Neither Jordan legal system, nor Israel legal system gave them ownership. Your whole argument is that under "reasonable" legal system they should have been given the ownership, but they were not. It's a far cry from "theft", let alone war crime, don't you think?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

AFC said it best already, but I would be truly embarrassed and disgusted with my neighbours if I were you. Any good, reasonable person can see the issues here and wouldn’t bend over backwards to dismiss them.

Read the article I provided. The only reason not too would be that you’re scared of a legitimate source challenging your far right, ultranationalist world view.

Why don't you read, for example, this:

Basically, the land was legally owned by Jewish community for over a century.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shei...ll%20of%20sale.


Also:

In 1982, the Palestinian residents signed an agreement accepting Jewish ownership of the land while being allowed to live there as protected tenants. The Palestinian residents have since repudiated the agreement, saying they were tricked into signing it,[86] and have ceased paying rent

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Yes but this not Hamas, this is just some poor arab family having their house stolen by the state of Israel and if you and Israel have lost the ability to see the difference between how you treat Hamas, the guilty, and how you treat some random wholly innocent family then you and Israel have lost your soul.

They arent being bombed because they were 50 foot away from a Hamas weapons dump or something understandable if still a bit morally dubious, no they are just having their houses stolen because Israel has the power to #### over an arab family for no reason, just because they are arab

You can repeat it hundred times, it will not become truth. The house was not theirs, and neither was the land. And it was not stolen. They were offered to live their for their lifetime and guarantees that their rents will never be terminated, yet they declined. Isn't it strange, that those Palestinian supporters never bothered to pay the rent for them?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I will add this Pointman, I know you have escaped Russia so the idea that as a Citizen you have a responsibility to control the moral path your country takes may seem ludicrous, and I am equally aware Israel can and routinely does treat Arabs like dirt, I get supreme crap on this site for pointing out that Israel is completely in charge and can and will kill tens of thousands of Gazans anytime it wants and there is no point in the rest of us really debating it.

But you are Israeli, this is your country, unlike the rest of us you have to act as the moral compass for Israel, not because it is the right thing to do (which it is) but because the more Israel kills and evicts its way into Russian and pre Mandela South African moral status, the more the world will be repulsed, the more sadly Jews all over the world that have nothing to do with this will suffer, the more your kids will have to suit up and get shot at as they reach 18, the harder you will find getting offshore contracts for programming gigs and the like, Israel can do what the hell it wants, kill every arab that so much as objects to having everything taken from them, there is nothing the world can do, but that doesn't mean there won't be consequences economically for Israel and youand your kids.

You are, ironically, the only person on this discusion that matters, it's your country, dont move from one bags of dicks country only to let your new home become the same kind of bag of dicks, do something_

You all matter. I can tell you exactly what you can do. Pay a rent for them. Set up a go fund me or something. The reason why this issue exists is that the families don't want to pay to live in houses they don't own. That's it.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

You literally said stopped paying the rent. Stopped means someone started paying rent and then stopped.

Apparently that's exactly what happened.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

They have lived in the homes that Jordan, who's land they were on, gave for 70 years, now if the descendants of the pre 1948 Jewish family that was supposed to have owned in pre WW2 came along with some deeds proving their ownership I would agree that it sucks but that was fair, but that is not what has happened, their homes are being stolen to be given to some guy just off the boat from New York who has no connection in any way to the land.

In any reasonable legal system, in any fair legal system land that has been lived on for 70 years by the same families, land that has no other claim to prior ownership would be deeded to them, under English Common Law the land would have been given to them after 20 years, this is the state of Israel ####ing some poor family over because they are Arab, nothing more, it's your country Pointman, if you are happy living wth a Government that just steals families land because they are arab I guess you are in the right country but if I was Israeli I would hang my head in shame, I would protest the utter depravity of the act

That's exactly what happened. But if you have any sources to the contrary, I'm willing to read them