Israel declares war on Hamas

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Hard to imagine actually believing Israeli settlers are just taking back what is theirs when 1,500~ were expelled or fled East Jerusalem, while 30,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled from West Jerusalem and over 700,000 Palestinians saw the same fate in the State of Israel.

If we’re arbitrarily picking points in time to determine ownership, do Palestinians have the right to take their land back?

Well no, because apparently we are also arbitrarily deciding what is and isn't legal based on whatever frameworks are most favorable to Israel. Then we get to ponder why oh why the continually kicked and spat on people eventually lash out. It's all so baffling.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Or is this restoring a 2000 year old claim that you're referring to?

"Of course. It says so right here in the book that we wrote."

~blankall

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well no, because apparently we are also arbitrarily deciding what is and isn't legal based on whatever frameworks are most favorable to Israel. Then we get to ponder why oh why the continually kicked and spat on people eventually lash out. It's all so baffling.

Nice job justifying indiscriminate murdering of civilians. I guess the indigenous in North America should slaughter anyone they can and in your mind that's A-OK. Let me guess you also think women can instigate being raped if they dress too provocatively? Heaven forbid they ever accept a peace deal.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Nice job justifying indiscriminate murdering of civilians. I guess the indigenous in North America should slaughter anyone they can and in your mind that's A-OK. Let me guess you also think women can instigate being raped if they dress too provocatively? Heaven forbid they ever accept a peace deal.

Dude, I think your brain is melting out your ears again. You really should get that checked out.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Sliver

"Of course. It says so right here in the book that we wrote."

~blankall

I've not mentioned religious scripture once. My argument for Israel's claim to existence is:

1. The Jews there have a historical, genetic, and cultural link to the land.
2. Jews owned the majority of the habitable land (land outside the Negev dessert) provided to them in the initial UN partition plan. They had been a majority in Jerusalem since the 1830s, despite many restrictions against them.
3. Israel exists now, and has existed for about 80 years. Israel is a well developed country of 10 million people. It's not suddenly going to cease existing.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

I've not mentioned religious scripture once. My argument for Israel's claim to existence is:

1. The Jews there have a historical, genetic, and cultural link to the land.
2. Jews owned the majority of the habitable land (land outside the Negev dessert) provided to them in the initial UN partition plan. They had been a majority in Jerusalem since the 1830s, despite many restrictions against them.
3. Israel exists now, and has existed for about 80 years. Israel is a well developed country of 10 million people. It's not suddenly going to cease existing.

Oh good, you are back!

Do you view East Jerusalem as part of Israel, or an occupied territory?


The bolded bit is pretty debatable. They really weren't "a majority" until some time after 1944. Not that it should be all that relevant.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...ative_majority

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by blankall

I've not mentioned religious scripture once. My argument for Israel's claim to existence is:

1. The Jews there have a historical, genetic, and cultural link to the land.
2. Jews owned the majority of the habitable land (land outside the Negev dessert) provided to them in the initial UN partition plan. They had been a majority in Jerusalem since the 1830s, despite many restrictions against them.
3. Israel exists now, and has existed for about 80 years. Israel is a well developed country of 10 million people. It's not suddenly going to cease existing.

My bad.

Israel: you may resume killing Palestinians.

[afc wimbledon]

You guys are missing the point, ownership of land, any land, is predicated on a countries ability to kill anyone that tries to take it away, Israel's claim to the West Bank has sod all to do with who lived there 20, 200 or 2000 years ago, it is based on the fact they conquered it in 1967 and no one can make them give it up

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Oh good, you are back!

Do you view East Jerusalem as part of Israel, or an occupied territory?


The bolded bit is pretty debatable. They really weren't "a majority" until some time after 1944. Not that it should be all that relevant.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...ative_majority

All of Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city. East Jerusalem only exists as any kind of a separate entity because Arabs invaded and then Jordan annexed it and expelled all Jews. Jordan controlled it for less than 20 years.

I regard it as disputed land. I do not regard it as land inherently belonging to Arabs and unlawfully occupied by Israel. Israel has, in fact, offered the Arab inhabited sections of East Jerusalem to the Palestinians as their future capital. Dividing the city in the future is the likely only path forward. I wouldn't say that division has to be based on the former ceasefire lines of 1948, that were later violated by Arabs less than 20 years later.

Edit: I would consider these to be a majority and/or an absoulte majority:

Jews Musilms Christians Total
1844 7,120 5,000 3,390 15,510
1846 7,515 6,100 3,558 17,173
1850 13,860 ? ? ?
1853 8,000 4,000 3,490 15,49
1857 7,000 ? ? 10–15,000

etc...

It should be noted that Muslims and Christians at this point, were not necessarily Arabs. Many of the non-Arabs, such as Turks, left after the war in 1948:

Official reports
In 1920, the British Government's Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine stated that there were hardly 700,000 people living in Palestine:

There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ. Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or—a small number—are Protestants. The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine. Most of them were animated by religious motives; they came to pray and to die in the Holy Land, and to be buried in its soil. After the persecutions in Russia forty years ago, the movement of the Jews to Palestine assumed larger proportions. Jewish agricultural colonies were founded. They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...estine_(region)

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Dude, I think your brain is melting out your ears again. You really should get that checked out.

Well at least you've started thinking, there should be a marked improvement in your comments. The first step is the hardest.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

All of Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city. East Jerusalem only exists as any kind of a separate entity because Arabs invaded and then Jordan annexed it and expelled all Jews. Jordan controlled it for less than 20 years.

I regard it as disputed land. I do not regard it as land inherently belonging to Arabs and unlawfully occupied by Israel. Israel has, in fact, offered the Arab inhabited sections of East Jerusalem to the Palestinians as their future capital. Dividing the city in the future is the likely only path forward. I wouldn't say that division has to be based on the former ceasefire lines of 1948, that were later violated by Arabs less than 20 years later.

Thank you, I appreciate an honest answer. If it is disputed, then why is Israeli law being imposed there? Does using the wording "disputed" justify the illegal settlements(so named by basically every court and legal expert outside of Israel)? Further, and ultimately, does this help move towards or away from peace?

[Fuzz]

As to your numbers, obviously the counts are dubious, but the claims of "majority" are hardly convincing given the math. It's not a strong argument to base anything on, and frankly I think pretty irrelevant.

[ResAlien]

Where do we stand on “death to arabs”?

https://apnews.com/article/israel-pa...0833888bc55581

JERUSALEM (AP) — Thousands of mostly ultranationalist Israelis were taking part in an annual march through a sensitive Palestinian area of Jerusalem on Wednesday, with some stoking already surging wartime tensions by chanting “Death to Arabs.”

Jerusalem, the emotional heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, has been mostly calm throughout the Israel-Hamas war. But the annual march, seen as provocative by Palestinians, could ignite broader unrest, as it did three years ago, when it helped set off an 11-day war in Gaza.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

You guys are missing the point, ownership of land, any land, is predicated on a countries ability to kill anyone that tries to take it away, Israel's claim to the West Bank has sod all to do with who lived there 20, 200 or 2000 years ago, it is based on the fact they conquered it in 1967 and no one can make them give it up

Do you have the same stance on Russia’s land grab in Ukraine? Ukrainians have no point in being upset? The world can’t be outraged of the killing of Ukrainian civilians?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

You guys are missing the point, ownership of land, any land, is predicated on a countries ability to kill anyone that tries to take it away, Israel's claim to the West Bank has sod all to do with who lived there 20, 200 or 2000 years ago, it is based on the fact they conquered it in 1967 and no one can make them give it up

If breaking the Geneva Conventions is how you gain land, I'm not sure Israel wants to stand on that leg, given their neighbours. Though they do seem to be fond of perpetual war.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Do you have the same stance on Russia’s land grab in Ukraine? Ukrainians have no point in being upset? The world can’t be outraged of the killing of Ukrainian civilians?

Resist the urge to tie the two skirmishes together.

But these situations aren't identical anyways. Crimea is essentially what you're referring to, and many it seems would in fact support an end to the war and reversal to pre conflict borders, which would leave Crimea as part of Russia.

[Bagor]

Nearly there.

Another couple of months of sickos shouting about how main food distributors like UNRWA are terrorists and blocking them from doing their work.
Another couple of months of bringing your kids to commit genocide day of blocking and destroying aid intended to preserve life.
Another couple of months of deliberate starvation and we'll get to hear about mass deaths from an intentional Israeli created famine.

Wonder if the kids will get an I participated in genocide tshirt from their proud parents.

Months of extreme hunger have already killed many Palestinians in Gaza and caused permanent damage to children through malnutrition, two new food security reports have found, even before famine is officially declared.

The US-based famine early warning system network (Fews Net) said it was “possible, if not likely” that famine began in northern Gaza in April. Two UN organisations said more than 1 million people were “expected to face death and starvation” by mid-July.1

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ar...a-agencies-say

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

You guys are missing the point, ownership of land, any land, is predicated on a countries ability to kill anyone that tries to take it away, Israel's claim to the West Bank has sod all to do with who lived there 20, 200 or 2000 years ago, it is based on the fact they conquered it in 1967 and no one can make them give it up

Dude why do you continuously tell us how powerful Israel is and how nobody can do anything about it?

Half your posts are misinformation on the middle east and the other half is telling us Israel can do whatever it wants and nobody can do anything about it.

Honestly feels like you're gloating or something and comes off weird ad hell.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Where do we stand on “death to arabs”?

They're just kids. Must be frustrating for them waiting for their kills.
But they're not indoctrinated to hate.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1798365792050069892

Silly man wearing a press vest. The enemy of Israel.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Do you have the same stance on Russia’s land grab in Ukraine? Ukrainians have no point in being upset? The world can’t be outraged of the killing of Ukrainian civilians?

Well if by that you mean do I think if Russia succeeds and conquers Ukraine they will get to keep it no matter what you or I think of the fairness of that then yes, might is not right but it is reality.

I have no doubt that the best end of the Ukraine war will be Russia withdraws to its starting lines and keeps the Donbass and Crimea, is that fair? probably not but it's likely the best outcome Ukraine can hope for and that is only predicated on Ukraine's ability to kill hundreds of thousands of Russians, if they cant then Russia gets to keep Mariupol

International law doesnt exist unless countries choose to go along with it which is why it really only applies to the countries that lose