Brad Treliving needs to go

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There are two people in the negotiation. I suspect Tkachuk was asking for the moon and not for max term. And was never interested in playing here anyway.

I doubt Tkachuk would have taken less than $9M on a long term deal - that is why the contract had a $9M poison pill.

Also he would have been pointing at Rantanen $9.25M x 6, and Marner $10.9 x 6 as the comparables from that offseason.

And if Tkachuk wanted to be here long term he could be here - he made the choice to ask for a trade now.

What would have been better:

Tkachuk at 6 x $9M walking him right to UFA.

or

Tkachuk at 3 x $7M and then 8 x $10.5M (Which was on the table if Tkachuk wanted to stay)

or

Tkachuk at 3 x $7M ending as a RFA with the ability to trade him if he refuses to re-sign.

I think the argument can be made that a bridge was still the right move based on the information available at the time the contract was signed. If Tkachuk wanted to be here long term he would still be here, there was a great 8 x $10.5M contract on the table for him if he wanted to stay.

More likely scenario is he never wanted to be here long term. Wouldn't have taken a long term deal back in 2019, and wasn't willing to take a long term deal now. He word is worth nothing, he says whatever makes Matthew Tkachuk look like the good guy in the media.

[ComixZone]

Tkachuk at 8 years, $10.5M would have been a good contract.

Flames should have got him inked for 8 years and slapped the “C” on his chest (yes, have Gio transition the “C” to him). That’s a player you build your franchise around. The Oilers took (pretty much) this approach with Draisaitl - they locked him up at “too much”, but they secured a cornerstone of their franchise and that deal ended up looking like a steal pretty quickly. Flames weren’t bold enough.

They didn’t, and it played out this way. Pretty grave mistake.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Tkachuk at 8 years, $10.5M would have been a good contract.

Flames should have got him inked for 8 years and slapped the “C” on his chest (yes, have Gio transition the “C” to him). That’s a player you build your franchise around.

They didn’t, and it played out this way. Pretty grave mistake.

Maybe it would have been a good contract.

Nobody would have called it a good contract in 19-20 or 20-21 when he was below a PPG.

You can't just assume if he signs that deal then he still has a 104 point season in 21-22 and a 108 point season this year.

The contract situation, and the new team was motivation for putting up big numbers...maybe that doesn't happen with a 8 x $10.5M signed.

People are using the benefit of hindsight to make decisions in 2019. People would have called for Treliving's head if he signed Tkachuk for 8 x $10.5M in 2019.

In the end the team was willing to make Tkachuk the highest paid player in Franchise history this past offseason, and he said "No Thanks". He never wanted to be here long term and his actions prove it. No matter what he says which is all just lip service to try to make himself look good.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Tkachuk at 8 years, $10.5M would have been a good contract.

Flames should have got him inked for 8 years and slapped the “C” on his chest (yes, have Gio transition the “C” to him). That’s a player you build your franchise around. The Oilers took (pretty much) this approach with Draisaitl - they locked him up at “too much”, but they secured a cornerstone of their franchise and that deal ended up looking like a steal pretty quickly. Flames weren’t bold enough.

They didn’t, and it played out this way. Pretty grave mistake.

Signing Tkachuk to a 10.5 contract after his ELC would have been panned pretty hard at the time. Easy to say in hindsight now. Also that is assuming Tkachuk would have even signed with the Flames on a long term contract. I don't think ever played on signing with the Flames after his second contract.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Maybe it would have been a good contract.

Nobody would have called it a good contract in 19-20 or 20-21 when he was below a PPG.

You can't just assume if he signs that deal then he still has a 104 point season in 21-22 and a 108 point season this year.

The contract situation, and the new team was motivation for putting up big numbers...maybe that doesn't happen with a 8 x $10.5M signed.

People are using the benefit of hindsight to make decisions in 2019. People would have called for Treliving's head if he signed Tkachuk for 8 x $10.5M in 2019.

In the end the team was willing to make Tkachuk the highest paid player in Franchise history this past offseason, and he said "No Thanks". He never wanted to be here long term and his actions prove it. No matter what he says which is all just lip service to try to make himself look good.

Nobody was calling the contract Buffalo gave Tage Thompson a good contract at the time it was signed. Good GMs should be good at predicting the trajectory a player is on. Tkachuk was drafted 6th overall, went right from junior to the NHL, and started producing right away. It should not have been a shock that he became a star player after a few years.

Foresight is an important quality for any GM, and hindsight is the way they should be judged. It's a fair way to evaluate them.

To your other post, I would have gladly taken Tkachuk for 6 years at $9 million even if it would have walked him to free agency, if that was what he wanted. It's a complete guess if that was what he actually tabled, but just for argument's sake. The caveat being that the Flames didn't go into that last season without an extension in place (or trade), like they did with Gaudreau. We should be thankful that Tkachuk at least made his intentions known early so he could be traded, but the unfortunate chain reaction means that we are now anchored with what is potentially the worst contract in NHL history since the implementation of 8-year term limits. That of course is still to be determined, but the early returns are not looking good.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Tkachuk at 8 years, $10.5M would have been a good contract.

Flames should have got him inked for 8 years and slapped the “C” on his chest (yes, have Gio transition the “C” to him). That’s a player you build your franchise around. The Oilers took (pretty much) this approach with Draisaitl - they locked him up at “too much”, but they secured a cornerstone of their franchise and that deal ended up looking like a steal pretty quickly. Flames weren’t bold enough.

They didn’t, and it played out this way. Pretty grave mistake.

A. Frolik or no, I don't know that $10.5 was doable then.
B. Tkachuk likely says no to 8 years. Or says yes and demands a trade 4 years in.
C. Draisaitl is no comparison. He was probably rightly terrified at moving from McDavid's side.
D. 10.5 would have been a huge gamble in 2019. And it sure would have looked bad in the next two seasons where Tkachuk was below a PPG.
E. Let's say he agreed to 6x9. We'd be done year 4 now, and I doubt Tkachuk makes a difference to the present result. You have him but you still don't have Gaudreau, you don't have Weegar, you don't have Huberdeau, who was good in the last month anyway. You are likely still playing with Monahan, because you don't have the pick to pay (and therefore no Kadri who, for all his afults, is better than Monahan).

So now you have 1 year left with
x-Lindholm-Tkachuk
Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman
Dube-Monahan-Pelletier
x-Ruzicka-Duehr

Hanifin-Andersson
Tanev-Zadorov
???????

Markstrom-Wolf or Vladar

I don't think that team is any better than what's on the ice for next year.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

So let's see, this is somehow Tre's fault even though...

- Inadequate 3 on 3 and shootout performance. 7-17 in extra time. Most likely a coaching issue. Even out the wins & losses at 12-12, that's +5 points.

- Too many regulation losses to bottom feeders. Swap even 2 of them from losses to wins and that's +4 points.

- Marky having a very down year. If he provides even a bit better goaltending we're looking at +4 points.

- Huby closer to his career averages in production, +4 points at least.

- Kylington missing all year. +3 or 4 points if he doesn't disappear suddenly before the season.

- Kadri inconsistent, more points there if he's more consistent.

Add at least 20 points to the Flames total, points they should have had, and we're having a VERY different conversation. A bunch of things outside of Tre's control completely sank the team and you're ready to run him out of town? smh

No, you can't do the math like that. That makes us a 112 point team, the clear presidents trophy winners.

First of all, improvement points based on various players/changes will have overlap. So Huberdeau's extra 4 points and Kylington's extra 3 points could be the same games, and THEN those points would have gotten us to less overtime/shootouts, so they'd overlap with some of your extra points for evening out the shootout wins/losses.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Maybe it would have been a good contract.

Nobody would have called it a good contract in 19-20 or 20-21 when he was below a PPG.

You can't just assume if he signs that deal then he still has a 104 point season in 21-22 and a 108 point season this year.

The contract situation, and the new team was motivation for putting up big numbers...maybe that doesn't happen with a 8 x $10.5M signed.

People are using the benefit of hindsight to make decisions in 2019. People would have called for Treliving's head if he signed Tkachuk for 8 x $10.5M in 2019.

In the end the team was willing to make Tkachuk the highest paid player in Franchise history this past offseason, and he said "No Thanks". He never wanted to be here long term and his actions prove it. No matter what he says which is all just lip service to try to make himself look good.

That's totally fair and all but the trend now is for teams that really like their young guys to sign them to money and term before they blow up. The Tage Thompson contract looks really good today and that's probably going to be the norm going forward for teams as it's better to invest into drafted prime talent than 28-30 year old free agents. I would expect if Coronato shows a lot of promise that the Flames won't be messing around when he becomes an RFA.

[Jore]

If tkachuk was never signing long term the real organizational failure was not flipping him for Eichel/the NJ 2nd overall/any other trade to maximize value for him before the 11th hour.

[jayswin]

Imo, the two biggest factors were Markstrom, probably good for +6 to 8 points and our coaching decisions/lack of focus on OT and shootout good for +6 to 8 points.

However those extra earned points would overlap with Markstrom playing average to great meaning we'd play less OT games as some of them would have been wins. So let's say an extra 10 points, putting us 4th in the Pacific, behind the Kings and ahead of the Kraken, safely at the bottom of the playoffs.

*Edit, maybe a bit higher as you have to factor in that our gained points would have come from some of the teams around us.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Jore

If tkachuk was never signing long term the real organizational failure was not flipping him for Eichel/the NJ 2nd overall/any other trade to maximize value for him before the 11th hour.

I actually am not sure how much Buffalo would have wanted him...he probably doesn't re-sign there either and that just is even more drama for them.

New Jersey...who knows if the 2nd was ever truly on the table.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Treliving has signed young players to long term deals on what may have looked like overpays at the time so to say he messed up the Tkachuk situation isn't fair.

He is the same guy who signed Brodie, Lindholm, Hanifin and Andersson not really established players at the time of the deals.

[UKflames]

Not that it matters either way but I would like Tre to stay, which seems against the flow on here today.

I commend him for trying new coaches, rather than always going for the tried and tested dinosaurs. Yes some of them didn't work out but I think Peters would have done well if his past hadn't caught up with him.
From a trading perspective, some really good hits and some real misses but no GM ever gets every trade right.
Drafting has been really good considering the position we've been drafting from. If he could keep hold of a few more picks rather than trading them away that would certainly help.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That's totally fair and all but the trend now is for teams that really like their young guys to sign them to money and term before they blow up. The Tage Thompson contract looks really good today and that's probably going to be the norm going forward for teams as it's better to invest into drafted prime talent than 28-30 year old free agents. I would expect if Coronato shows a lot of promise that the Flames won't be messing around when he becomes an RFA.

Agreed. It’s hard to fault the organization for doing exactly what most teams in the league are doing, but middle of the road conventional wisdom decisions without foresight lead organizations right to the middle of the pack.

[MegaErtz]

Signing Nazem Kadri to a seven year deal that won't end until he's 38 years old was nuts. Trading away a first round pick to get Monahan off the books so he could fit Kadri's salary was even worse. Now the next GM is going to be saddled with yet another contract that we won't be able to move without throwing in picks.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I actually am not sure how much Buffalo would have wanted him...he probably doesn't re-sign there either and that just is even more drama for them.

New Jersey...who knows if the 2nd was ever truly on the table.

Yeah there’s not a lot of clear information, but I think we only know that Tkachuk was not an option at all for the flames trading for Eichel, which I deeply regretted at the time. Still, if the flames knew his intentions from his first bridge, that’s plenty of opportunity to flip him for something else over the next few years.

[wretched34]

Originally Posted by jayswin

No, you can't do the math like that. That makes us a 112 point team, the clear presidents trophy winners.

First of all, improvement points based on various players/changes will have overlap. So Huberdeau's extra 4 points and Kylington's extra 3 points could be the same games, and THEN those points would have gotten us to less overtime/shootouts, so they'd overlap with some of your extra points for evening out the shootout wins/losses.

I think the point is that with the team Treliving assembled this season, almost everything went historically wrong, and yet a few extra saves or a few extra goals and the team is comfortably in the playoffs.
A 37-27-17 record, with 30 1 goals losses could have easily been a 44-24-13 record.
Markstrom being career average changes everything.
Not to mention new guys not gelling in Sutters system.

Treliving did everything he could to keep this team competitive when it could have easily been a bottom feeder after our 2 best players wanted out, and I think he did a good job of it.

I think Treliving should get another year, or two at least to see where it goes.
Fire Sutter, try to move Markstrom or buy him out, and run it back next year with some more youth and skill.

[GioforPM]

With our luck:

Treliving leaves and hooks up with a rival like Dallas or Winnipeg.
Sutter takes over.
Treliving's team does very well, with some improved play from Markstrom, Kadri and Huberdeau, proving that he wasn't nuts in assembling the team like he did.
Sutter decides to tinker and blows it.

[Hey Connor, It's Mess]

On one hand it is probably time to move on from Treliving. On the other hand, it's a little scary to picture who from within could get promoted to the position. Who would run an outside GM search? John Bean?

[Paulie Walnuts]

For the people who want Treliving gone would you rather have Don Maloney or Bob Murray as the puppet GM for Sutter? Or it could even be Sutter himself.

The only option that could be possible but likely not is Dubas, but we don't have hockey guys like Burke to run a GM search.

If Treliving walks we are in trouble.