Francis: Treliving filled with disappointment, anger after team's collapse

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Not when you look at the quarter splits, which are available on dobber. Or when you look game by game. He for sure was on the top unit in the first quarter, and obviously in the shortened lineup in the fourth quarter, which skews his numbers for the season. In the second quarter he was taken off altogether, averaging less than 30 seconds per game (in other words, he was being put on in anticipation of it ending). He got on some more after Ferland went out in the third quarter.

So, basically what you're saying then is:

For SURE on the top unit in the first quarter

So when Versteeg and Jagr were healthy and active on the roster
Which confirms it was a legit choice by the coaching staff

For SURE on the top unit in the last quarter because of shortened lineup

At this point it was known he was a waste of time even being on the PP so why not throw ANYONE else out there just to see (Lazar, Hathaway, Harvey)

Taken off in for the second quarter

Maybe some hope, but had the odd game where he was thrown onto 1 of the units for whatever reason

Ferland goes down and Brouwer gets those minutes during the 3rd quarter

Again, there was nobody else we could have tried rather than throwing out Brouwer who to this point provided absolutely NOTHING to suggest this time around it would be any different?

Sounds to me like in the grand scheme of things he was overused completely and the results speak for themselves. Lots in the 1st and 4th, minimal in the second and more in the 3rd quarter. That's significant time in 3/4 quarters which to me echo's the concerns of many here.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Major Major

How can you not take jagr and Versteeg into account? These were two players earmarked for the pp the were made unavailable to him. There wasn't much to choose from when they went down, and the numbers support that Brouwer wasn't exactly a pp staple. If memory serves, they were trying a ton of different options.

Anyhow, the greatest pp crime of the season was Hamilton not being on pp1 until mid season and also the slow and conservative triangular puck movement. Flames let it be known that they didn't do seam passes. Dave Cameron literally came out and said that. It was an incredibly easy thing to defend.

Because they did not play much at all. Gulutzan played the hand given to him, I get it. but we went thru what, 16 forwards all year. Brouwer should have been just about the last guy on this team to be on the PP. And he wasn't. In fact, he was on the top unit for much of his year.

0 goals. Can anyone tell me why a guy with 0 goals after half a season still gets pp time? That's what I want to discuss. Not the nitpicking that some here keep bringing up here.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

The point is that you have no point, but you feel the need to pipe in whenever anyone makes any negative comment about GG or Brouwer and correct people.
We dont need to be corrected. Especially with ridiculous justifications that you continue to manufacture.
A guy with 0 PP goals all year does not belong on a PP when 9 other forwards are siting on the bench,. End. Of. Story

A. There aren't 9 other forwards sitting on the bench. There are two PP units, that employ 3-4 fwds. So really out of 12 forwards, 4-5 don't play on the PP already. It's really a choice of Stajan, Lazar or Hathaway getting PP time if you take Boruwer out.

B. My "ridiculous justification" is that after the first quarter when he was removed from the PP (look at the game logs for proof of this) the usual netfront guys, Ferland and Tkachuk, got hurt and only then was he reinserted.

C. Other guys got similar PP time with similar results. Sam Bennett got one goal and less points with more time. His one goal was in the rout of TB. Frolik had no goals despite some PP time. Jankowski took a long time to get PP points after being put on the second unit in the second quarter. He got on track in the third quarter, and he pumped up his PP production in the last game, with two of his four goals. Up until then he was about the same as anyone not on the first unit.

[Red]

Originally Posted by stone hands

Correcting people who make false statements is how we are better than oilers fans

Insane hyperbole that should only see the light of day on overtime after the game

There is plenty of areas to legitimately criticize around this team without having to make stuff up

Please expand because you are insinuating that I am making up crap here.

0 goals. There is no way to justify it. Not to me.

[rhino]

Originally Posted by Red

Because they did not play much at all. Gulutzan played the hand given to him, I get it. but we went thru what, 16 forwards all year. Brouwer should have been just about the last guy on this team to be on the PP. And he wasn't. In fact, he was on the top unit for much of his year.

0 goals. Can anyone tell me why a guy with 0 goals after half a season still gets pp time? That's what I want to discuss. Not the nitpicking that some here keep bringing up here.

So if anyone could explain the coaches rational behind it that would make you happier about it? This season is over and I think most of us agree there were numerous situational and roster decisions that should be questioned. Hopefully there is a new staff and a few player changes next year and things improve. Pissing contests on this board solve nothing.... people just hope everyone else sees things as they do so they can feel like they have all the answers.... but yet no power to change things.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A. There aren't 9 other forwards sitting on the bench. There are two PP units, that employ 3-4 fwds. So really out of 12 forwards, 4-5 don't play on the PP already. It's really a choice of Stajan, Lazar or Hathaway getting PP time if you take Boruwer out.

B. My "ridiculous justification" is that after the first quarter when he was removed from the PP (look at the game logs for proof of this) the usual netfront guys, Ferland and Tkachuk, got hurt and only then was he reinserted.

C. Other guys got similar PP time with similar results. Sam Bennett got one goal and less points with more time. His one goal was in the rout of TB. Frolik had no goals despite some PP time. Jankowski took a long time to get PP points after being put on the second unit in the second quarter. He got on track in the third quarter, and he pumped up his PP production in the last game, with two of his four goals. Up until then he was about the same as anyone not on the first unit.

Again withe the splitting atoms. Point stands, half the forwards sat watching him stand on the goal line on the PP.

Tell me why putting a guy that has proven to suck time and time again, with 0 results was an automatic upgrade on all the other forwards?
All season long, 0 goals. He was the best choice? Tell me your take on that.
You stood by GG on this one all year. Let's hear it, why you agree that there was not a possible better option on the bench?

[Sylvanfan]

I keep seeing the title of this thread and think it says

Francis: Treliving fired

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

Because they did not play much at all. Gulutzan played the hand given to him, I get it. but we went thru what, 16 forwards all year. Brouwer should have been just about the last guy on this team to be on the PP. And he wasn't. In fact, he was on the top unit for much of his year.

0 goals. Can anyone tell me why a guy with 0 goals after half a season still gets pp time? That's what I want to discuss. Not the nitpicking that some here keep bringing up here.

He was on the top unit for the first 12 games or so, not on the PP at all for a bunch of games (10 or so) starting in early November, then on the second unit until mid-December when he was right off of the PP again. In February with injuries he got PP time for 3 games and then got yanked off again. In March he started to play on the PP again, until the end of the season.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2017-2018:R

[edslunch]

Geez guys, let it go. The season wasn’t won or lost on Brouwer’s PP time

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

Again withe the splitting atoms. Point stands, half the forwards sat watching him stand on the goal line on the PP.

Tell me why putting a guy that has proven to suck time and time again, with 0 results was an automatic upgrade on all the other forwards?
All season long, 0 goals. He was the best choice? Tell me your take on that.
You stood by GG on this one all year. Let's hear it, why you agree that there was not a possible better option on the bench?

Two or three other forwards were on the ice, three or four other forwards were on the other PP unit. The only ones watching and not getting any PP time are Stajan, Lazar and Hathaway.

You keep harping on "no PP goals". Which players who were lighting it up offensively didn't get PP time?

BTW, when they were in, Jagr and Versteeg got way more PP time.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2017-2018:R

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2017-2018:R

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He was on the top unit for the first 12 games or so, not on the PP at all for a bunch of games (10 or so) starting in early November, then on the second unit until mid-December when he was right off of the PP again. In February with injuries he got PP time for 3 games and then got yanked off again. In March he started to play on the PP again, until the end of the season.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2017-2018:R

If we’re just gonna cherry pick numbers and stats out of the air to defend Brouwer being the beat choice for the PP I’d suggest you look at the fact that the flames had their best stretches of the season from a results perspective during the second and third quarters of the season... the same quarters where Brouwer played least time on PP.

Coincidence???

If I may read between the lines and interpret from this data, the rest of the team performed better when thy knew a terribly overused player was no longer getting PP time?

[Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Two or three other forwards were on the ice, three or four other forwards were on the other PP unit. The only ones watching and not getting any PP time are Stajan, Lazar and Hathaway.

You keep harping on "no PP goals". Which players who were lighting it up offensively didn't get PP time?

BTW, when they were in, Jagr and Versteeg got way more PP time.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2017-2018:R

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...es=2017-2018:R

When was Brouwer ever lighting it up? Man this is beyond rediculous. Find me a F with 0 PP goals that played as much PP as Brouwer here. In this league or any other league.

Anyways, let's agree to disagree and move on.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

When was Brouwer ever lighting it up? Man this is beyond rediculous. Find me a F with 0 PP goals that played s much as PP Brouwer here. In this league or any other league.

Anyways, let's agree to disagree and move on.

Brouwer wasn't lighting it up. What I keep asking is, when you are saying the coach should do something else, it might be useful to say what that would be. So who, out of Stajan, Lazar or Hathaway, are you using? Especially as a screen?

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Brouwer wasn't lighting it up. What I keep asking is, when you are saying the coach should do something else, it might be useful to say what that would be. So who, out of Stajan, Lazar or Hathaway, are you using? Especially as a screen?

Any of them...

Brouwer wasn’t working but for various reasons but the definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting a different result.

The Brouwer PP thing is just one of the player usage reasons people don’t like GG and want him fired

[Red]

Like I said, I am done with this. Beating a dead horse.

But if I may just offer a parting thought.
Yes, Brouwer was great screening the goalies. This is why our PP scored that one goal in the last quarter of the season. And please correct me again if I am wrong, but according to your stats and ice time dissection it is the quarter in which he played on the top PP.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Brouwer wasn't lighting it up. What I keep asking is, when you are saying the coach should do something else, it might be useful to say what that would be. So who, out of Stajan, Lazar or Hathaway, are you using? Especially as a screen?

I am using Stajan, Lazar or Hathaway. It's literally impossible for them to be worse than Brouwer.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

Like I said, I am done with this. Beating a dead horse.

But if I may just offer a parting thought.
Yes, Brouwer was great screening the goalies. This is why our PP scored that one goal in the last quarter of the season. And please correct me again if I am wrong, but according to your stats and ice time dissection it is the quarter in which he played on the top PP.

A. You are wrong he still was getting mostly second unit time.

B. The PP scored two goals in the last game alone so I don't understand your "one goal comment". FWIW he was on the first unit in that game and he was on for Jankwoski's two PP goals.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

Any of them...

Brouwer wasn’t working but for various reasons but the definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting a different result.

This is not the definition of insanity.

More to the point, not just any player can play the net-front role on the powerplay. Last year the Flames had a top-15 powerplay with Brouwer averaging even more ice time. It is not a stretch at all to see why he was the go-to-guy to fill in for injured players; nor is it a mystery to see why coaches did not consider his presence the problem.

In the end, edslunch is right: "the season was not won or lost on Brouwer’s PP time." This was not a significant issue, and among other legitimate criticisms of the coaching staff (player preparation, emotional and psychological fortitude, etc) it doesn't help matters by making up or exaggerating circumstances.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

Any of them...

Brouwer wasn’t working but for various reasons but the definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting a different result.

The Brouwer PP thing is just one of the player usage reasons people don’t like GG and want him fired

But they tried plenty of other options. They didn't work. The entire second unit didn't work. No matter what GG did, it would have been insane here based on your incorrect definition.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by Major Major

But they tried plenty of other options. They didn't work. The entire second unit didn't work. No matter what GG did, it would have been insane here based on your incorrect definition.

He probably should’ve just declined the PP whenever the other team took a penalty...


May have actually helped keep momentum instead of losing it every time