Alberta Politics Thread

[indes]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

So far the solutions proposed are:

"Cutbacks in healthcare, without impacting service levels somehow...something something bloated system!"

"Cutbacks in education, without impacting service levels somehow...something something bloated system!"

"Cutbacks in government, without impacting service levels somehow...something something bloated system!"

Details forthcoming I suppose.

There have been multiple examples posted that Alberta pays much more than the average province per capita for healthcare and receives subpar service. Do you have evidence that suggests otherwise? We're dumping money into it and terrible levels of service already.

Is it actually necessary to point out that efficiency is not partisan? Your drive bys not only lack any thought, they really do more to hurt your position as an NDP poster boy.

[Cappy]

Alberta Party released a "shadow budget" today.

I think the Alberta Party, and Greg Clark, offered solid proposals during the last election, similar to Liberal Party, but closer to right of center.

http://abpartycaucus.ca/wp-content/u...udget_2016.pdf

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by GGG

How much debt did we accumulate under Redford / Stelmech?

Both were disasters caused by a ridiculous voting system, you can thank the unions for Redford though. Neither were what I would consider to be fiscal conservatives, not even close.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

That's what we should do. But that would require Alberta voters to act like adults, and recognize we can't get all our wants on the cheap, and we may have to both A) pay taxes comparable to what the rest of Canada and the developed world pay, and B) cut back on public spending. But the left will never agree to cutting public service jobs or salaries, and the right will never agree to have a tax regime that is only tied for the lowest in Canada, and not the lowest by far.

If we brought our spending under control then there wouldn't be such a huge need for tax increases. I would have no problem paying higher taxes if the money was spent well, the problem is that when the government gets more money they have no problem finding ways to spend it. I've actually said before that we should funnel all resource revenues into the Heritage Fund and then siphon off dividends. After a decade or two of this we would have a nice stable revenue source that would be sheltered from price fluxuations. I wish Klein would have done this once we got back into surplus.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's the thing, though. We've been doing that for years. And now interest rates are rock bottom, and capital projects would help with employment and the economy. So now is actually the time to be doing them. You wither borrow money against the future, or you defer these things further, and borrow against future infrastructure failures, that cost more in the long run.

It doesn't matter what interest rates are today if you have no plan or intention to pay that money back.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by indes

There have been multiple examples posted that Alberta pays much more than the average province per capita for healthcare and receives subpar service. Do you have evidence that suggests otherwise? We're dumping money into it and terrible levels of service already.

Is it actually necessary to point out that efficiency is not partisan? Your drive bys not only lack any thought, they really do more to hurt your position as an NDP poster boy.

He's not an NDP poster boy, he just uses this message board to mess around.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Crazy idea... remove all royalties from the budget, increase taxes to compensate. Then rebate royalties to Albertan's every year. On good years, when the industry is doing well, everyone in the province benefits. In bad years, they don't.

That is basically what Alaska does. There Fund distributes 50% of the interest gains to the government and 50% of the interest gains to the people. Although recently they are starting to draw down this fund because of minimum payments they have to make.

I think you'd be better off inverting though. The fund collects money when prices are high and dividends out when prices are low to support consumer spending.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by indes

There have been multiple examples posted that Alberta pays much more than the average province per capita for healthcare and receives subpar service. Do you have evidence that suggests otherwise? We're dumping money into it and terrible levels of service already.

Is it actually necessary to point out that efficiency is not partisan? Your drive bys not only lack any thought, they really do more to hurt your position as an NDP poster boy.

Are you proposing layoffs?

or Salary Cuts?

Whats the plan to bring our costs in line with other provinces? Cutting 10,000 jobs doesn't help us right now. Without mass striking you won't get wage roll backs which again really hurts consumer spending. The best you can do is wage freeze for a few years which over the next four nets us a few billion but again it takes us from 10 billion to 9 billion.

So provide a detailed plan using estimated numbers to get there for the next four years and the consequences of those numbers.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I would take issue with the way this Gov't has gone about increasing revenue. Carbon tax, whatever they are inevitable.

Corporate taxes are the most inefficient form of taxation and when trying to diversify the economy, probably not the best solution with lower rates in BC and Sask. Income taxes are more efficient than Corp. taxes but not by much. Sales taxes are one of the most efficient tax forms out there and Alberta should be utilizing them - it's really a shame that people cannot look past some misconceived notion that PST = failure.

Also, if you think this Province needs to curb its reliance on royalties, then you need to "look in the mirror" as well and determine how we can cut 40-60 billion. We are basically running on limited royalties as we speak and its clear that we have a spending problem in this Province (as is clear in almost every province and Fed) and things NEED to be cut.

I agree with what you are saying though you are kind of goldiloxing the corporate tax rate. I think the argument to lower corporate taxes is much like funding arena's to keep an NHL team. When every jurisdiction is cutting rates you have to do it but everyone would be better off with marginally higher rates. Its only recently that tax rates were lower than 12% and are big head office acquisitions occurred when corporate rates were 11.5% and higher.

I fully agree with a PST being added, wage freezing in public sector jobs, elimination of defined benefit pensions.

The problem though is that a right wing party won't raise taxes and a left wing party won't cut jobs. So how do you wean yourself of oil when both are required.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by GGG

Alaska
Norway
Saudi Arabia
Most of OPEC -- although recently as their extraction costs went up and there security costs went up haven't been.
Alberta under Peter Lougheed from 1972 to 1987.
They each do it to varying degrees.

Essentially any jurisdiction that builds a sovereign wealth fund.

On the bolded: you are moving the goalposts. Your argument is that we need to stop counting on resource revenue entirely, not "to a degree".

That said, thanks. Alaska is pretty much the only direct comparable to modern Alberta from that list, as the rest are national entities. I'll have to take a look at their budgetary practices at some point.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Alberta Party released a "shadow budget" today.

I think the Alberta Party, and Greg Clark, offered solid proposals during the last election, similar to Liberal Party, but closer to right of center.

http://abpartycaucus.ca/wp-content/u...udget_2016.pdf

I read through it but I would want to see a side by side with the NDP budget and even with other shadow budgets to really see the difference. I mean they're using lower revenue projections, running lower deficits that balance faster and there is no mention of service cuts that I could see. So it sounds great...but would it work?

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

On the bolded: you are moving the goalposts. Your argument is that we need to stop counting on resource revenue entirely, not "to a degree".

That said, thanks. Alaska is pretty much the only direct comparable to modern Alberta from that list, as the rest are national entities. I'll have to take a look at their budgetary practices at some point.

Well Norway has more debt than their "heritage fund" is worth last I heard. Then Saudi and OPEC are, well, not exactly "democracies"

[MrMastodonFarm]

Time to legalise and tax marjiuana in this province

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by username

That's a matter of opinion.........and leaving billions in debt for future generations doesn't sit well with me. Had they at least made an attempt to mitigate the amount in any meaningful way I could stomach this but there was literally no effort made to cut anythng.

Highest per capita health care and education costs in the country and what do they do about it? Spend more!

Dude, we had a freaking province-wide eugenics program for 40+ years. You honestly think a budget deficit is more shameful than that? We also had a premiere who threatened to use the notwithstanding clause to block gay marriage. The socially-regressive history of Alberta politics is much more embarrassing than any economic failures the NDP could come up with.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Time to legalise and tax marjiuana in this province

I doubt that's going to happen, Even the Liberals have put an indefinite delay on the legalization question because of its effects on international treaties.

I think on their things to do list its on page 43 of 44 and they haven't even assigned much in the way of resources to study it.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GGG

I agree with what you are saying though you are kind of goldiloxing the corporate tax rate. I think the argument to lower corporate taxes is much like funding arena's to keep an NHL team. When every jurisdiction is cutting rates you have to do it but everyone would be better off with marginally higher rates. Its only recently that tax rates were lower than 12% and are big head office acquisitions occurred when corporate rates were 11.5% and higher.

I fully agree with a PST being added, wage freezing in public sector jobs, elimination of defined benefit pensions.

The problem though is that a right wing party won't raise taxes and a left wing party won't cut jobs. So how do you wean yourself of oil when both are required.

I wouldnt say the argument against corporate taxes has to do with the fact that everyone else is cutting corp taxes. It's not entirely based on competitiveness (although the argument could be made)

Optimal taxation theory tells us that we should eliminate corporate taxation and move to a progressive consumption tax and perhaps a land value tax.

[indes]

Originally Posted by GGG

So provide a detailed plan using estimated numbers to get there for the next four years and the consequences of those numbers.

If elected into office this is where I would start.

Maybe its not 10,000 jobs but it actually would help. It is mathematically impossible that the consumer spending of the people holding said jobs is more than the taxes they consume (100% of their income) so I'm not sure how you figure them holding jobs helps balance the budget more than laying them off.

Originally Posted by GGG

The best you can do is wage freeze for a few years which over the next four nets us a few billion

The best we can do is status quo? As in running massive deficits to compensate an inefficient and bloated system? I refuse to believe that the solution to our woes is to do nothing. Many people have asked where the royalties have gone and how come our province doesn't have a huge stash of cash flow sitting around for times like these, well here it is. A lack of pragmatism and turning a blind eye to public spending in the good times has led us to a drastic economic situation and I believe like the private sector, the public sector needs to be brought back into check.

I don't have the answers and its just my opinion but I think something should be done, or should be looked into

[mrkajz44]

Alberta's debt rating just got dropped to AA from AAA. Still a very solid rating, but not a good sign.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle27861052/

And for what it's worth, the lower the debt rating, the higher the interest rate will be on our debt. So while we are still in good shape now, this is a bad sign for the future.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

On the bolded: you are moving the goalposts. Your argument is that we need to stop counting on resource revenue entirely, not "to a degree".

That said, thanks. Alaska is pretty much the only direct comparable to modern Alberta from that list, as the rest are national entities. I'll have to take a look at their budgetary practices at some point.

I said (or at least intended to say) move toward not using resource revenues to fund operating costs. I also said that we should peg our oil price at $60 and use that value as the max we contribute to operating costs and save the rest. So at least in what I intend to say it isn't shut the taps off tomorrow. Its develop a plan to ween yourself off resource based royalties to fund services and instead live off the returns of the royalties you collect. I think a pragmatic approach is necessary rarely going all the way in any one approach makes sense.

Also Alaska is killing their golden goose because they refuse to cut the dividend or the amount the gov uses of it to deliver services.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by indes

If elected into office this is where I would start.

Maybe its not 10,000 jobs but it actually would help. It is mathematically impossible that the consumer spending of the people holding said jobs is more than the taxes they consume (100% of their income) so I'm not sure how you figure them holding jobs helps balance the budget more than laying them off.

The best we can do is status quo? As in running massive deficits to compensate an inefficient and bloated system? I refuse to believe that the solution to our woes is to do nothing. Many people have asked where the royalties have gone and how come our province doesn't have a huge stash of cash flow sitting around for times like these, well here it is. A lack of pragmatism and turning a blind eye to public spending in the good times has led us to a drastic economic situation and I believe like the private sector, the public sector needs to be brought back into check.

I don't have the answers and its just my opinion but I think something should be done, or should be looked into

So in otherwords your proposal is cut waste that doesn't impact front line services.

I do think freezing hiring, and freezing salaries would be a good way (if not the best way) to bring our expenses back into line. If Alberta grows at 2% per year than that is effectively a 10% cut over 5 years. Doing this avoids the negative impacts of massive spending cuts during a recession. Cuts which should have been happening during the boom.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

Alberta's debt rating just got dropped to AA from AAA. Still a very solid rating, but not a good sign.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle27861052/

And for what it's worth, the lower the debt rating, the higher the interest rate will be on our debt. So while we are still in good shape now, this is a bad sign for the future.

No good. Second drop in a year. By the time the NDP is out of office Alberta will have to rely on payday loans.

[indes]

Originally Posted by GGG

So in otherwords your proposal is cut waste that doesn't impact front line services.

I do think freezing hiring, and freezing salaries would be a good way (if not the best way) to bring our expenses back into line. If Alberta grows at 2% per year than that is effectively a 10% cut over 5 years. Doing this avoids the negative impacts of massive spending cuts during a recession. Cuts which should have been happening during the boom.

I agree freezes will be an awesome start, I hope we can start trimming the fat and carry it through regardless of the economy. Our public services shouldn't fluctuate as much as our commodities do. Since the boom is the reason for the bloat and cost, a crash should realign things the other way. Anyways good chat!