Brad "Frickin" Treliving

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

No it doesn't. As long as your #5 is solid.

If you have a solid #5, then you don't really have a weak third pairing.

Unless, of course, your #6 is so bad he doesn't even belong in the NHL; but that's an easy weakness to fix.

[TheSquatch]

It's pretty obvious so far that Toffoli doesn't have the game to hang with Huberdeau, where Lindholm, for example does. Is Toffoli capable of shaking of the rust and playing a top line position? Maybe. But the team looks better if he's 2RW and Coleman is 3RW, just as much as the team looks better with Backlund at 3C vs 2C. So you have to hope for some kind of improvement on wing, whether it's a resurgent Toffoli or a new addition.

In any case, big props to BT here for making what looked like a ruinous summer into possibly a critical turning point for the better. Huberdeau looks super competent, and Weegar looks excellent. Add the much needed depth, tenacity, and frankly mean-ness in Kadri at center, and holy smokes, what a turnaround for the team.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

It's pretty obvious so far that Toffoli doesn't have the game to hang with Huberdeau, where Lindholm, for example does. Is Toffoli capable of shaking of the rust and playing a top line position? Maybe. But the team looks better if he's 2RW and Coleman is 3RW, just as much as the team looks better with Backlund at 3C vs 2C. So you have to hope for some kind of improvement on wing, whether it's a resurgent Toffoli or a new addition.

I don't think so, cause he simply doesn't have the wheels to be there for what Huberdeau can dish. A fast, skilled finisher is critical to creating a true top line and therefore a Cup contender, imo.

[Burning Beard]

Tofolli had a goal (yeah I know right place at the right time) but I didn't think he looked too bad. His stride looks terrible but he is often in the right place at the right time and has decent positioning. I'll be interested to see how that line progresses.

[Sandman]

Toffoli makes me a bit nervous, as he's no spring chicken. It's not like he's going to get any faster, and it can be a fast decline for a player like that going into their 30's. Dany Heatley comes to mind.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

But the team looks better if he's 2RW and Coleman is 3RW, just as much as the team looks better with Backlund at 3C vs 2C. So you have to hope for some kind of improvement on wing, whether it's a resurgent Toffoli or a new addition.

You're asking to add a #1 RW to a team that is already within $1.4 million of the cap. Even if there were such a player on the market (there isn't), how do you suggest they should pay him?

As Donald Rumsfeld used to say: ‘You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want.’ We all want a team with no holes in the roster and no weaknesses anywhere. But there is a salary cap, and no such team exists.

Originally Posted by Sandman

Toffoli makes me a bit nervous, as he's no spring chicken. It's not like he's going to get any faster, and it can be a fast decline for a player like that going into their 30's. Dany Heatley comes to mind.

Toffoli is signed only for this year and next year, and at a perfectly reasonable salary – 8th on the team among forwards, 12th overall. His game would have to fall off a cliff very fast indeed to give you any reason to worry.

Some numbers on Toffoli:

Career PPG, regular season: 0.604
PPG last season after being traded to Calgary: 0.621
Career PPG, playoffs: 0.500
PPG in last season's playoffs: 0.417 (and one more point would have put him exactly at 0.500)

Darryl Sutter specifically criticized him for being in poor condition after he arrived last season, yet he put up numbers right in line with his usual scoring rates. He has now had a long off season to get himself into the shape Sutter wants him to be in, and Sutter has seen enough out of him to put him on the first line.

I'm some distance yet from worrying about Tyler Toffoli.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Tofolli had a goal (yeah I know right place at the right time) but I didn't think he looked too bad. His stride looks terrible but he is often in the right place at the right time and has decent positioning. I'll be interested to see how that line progresses.

Toffoli is good when the play is already settled in the opposing zone. But Huberdeau's skill is finding guys on the rush coming into the zone quick or in transition 5 on 5 and that's where Toffoli wasn't in the same stratosphere in that game.

If we want to have an elite top line we need two threats for Huberdeau to pass to.

[Kasi]

The answer as usual I’m sure will be trade Hanifin but that does leave our defence shaky on the third pair. Maybe if Kylington was around that might work but who knows when he is getting back. I don’t want a Stone/Mackey third pairing.

[Itse]

I think swapping Mangiapane and Toffoli around might work better.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Toffoli is good when the play is already settled in the opposing zone. But Huberdeau's skill is finding guys on the rush coming into the zone quick or in transition 5 on 5 and that's where Toffoli wasn't in the same stratosphere in that game.

If we want to have an elite top line we need two threats for Huberdeau to pass to.

I mean, yes, Huberdeau is good on the rush, but I would argue his game is more suited to players who know how to cycle well. That's where his creativity shines. When he and Barkov were on the same line they cycled so well the defenders got lost very quickly, leading to great chances down low.

I say this as someone who has been watching him non stop since 2014. That line will make hay when they get familiar enough to cycle the puck well. Both Lindholm and Toffoli can capitalize on finding soft areas and waiting for a pass.

Give it time. If it's still an issue near the trade deadline you acquire a rental. It's fine for now.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

It's pretty obvious so far that Toffoli doesn't have the game to hang with Huberdeau, where Lindholm, for example does...

I don't know how "obvious" this can even be after one game. From my perspective I thought Toffoli looked just fine on Thursday night. He was in perfect position on the rush right to start the game, and he got a great shot off forcing Francouz to make an excellent save. Toffoli was then the player to hit Dube in stride with a good pass while he was breaking in, and he got a great scoring chance. Toffoli was around it all night, and at no point did I see him struggling to keep up with his linemates.

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[GioforPM]

I wouldn’t mind seeing Mangiapane and Toffoli switch places at some point to see if a little more quickness helps the top line (I think between Kadri and Dube the second line would be plenty fast enough with Toffoli).

[TheSquatch]

Yes, the obvious "How do you get a top winger" is to trade a defensive chip, and I almost feel like the Flames have enough on the back end to manage this. There's enough talent around, but if you move anyone the slotting gets a lot worse. Add injuries into it and things get dangerous fast. Hanifin is our current best at left D.

So presumably a pickup at the end of the year, where the mil they have left over is enough to cover the contract (presumably expiring).

Maybe Toffoli will be fine, or maybe there's some rotation of wingers between the lines. I don't think it's insurmountable, and if the pair of Huberdeau and Lindholm is going to work with genuine chemistry, then the third guy may ALWAYS look like the third guy out there - kind of like whoever was on the ice with the Sedins at any given time.

BT turned Johnny Walker, a broken Monahan, and Tkachuk into Huberdeau, Weegar, and Kadri. If they need a winger, he'll manage it.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't know how "obvious" this can even be after one game. From my perspective I thought Toffoli looked just fine on Thursday night. He was in perfect position on the rush right to start the game, and he got a great shot off forcing Francouz to make an excellent save. Toffoli was then the player to hit Dube in stride with a good pass while he was breaking in, and he got a great scoring chance. Toffoli was around it all night, and at no point did I see him struggling to keep up with his linemates.

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Maybe I put it too strongly.

I just didn't think he looked as sharp/ready as Lindholm in general. I am almost certainly biased from last year where Toffoli had some magic moments but looked out of synch for most of his time here.

But I guess the feeling I had after game 1 is "Wow, Huberdeau is the real deal, he's got all kinds of vision and smarts." and at no point did I think "Wow thank God we got Toffoli up on that line, he's dazzling."

Now maybe you don't need dazzling, maybe you just need stick-on-the-ice readiness and I think Toffoli can bring that. And maybe this whole thing is moot - what kind of supporting winger will the Huberdeau/Lindholm pair thrive with? A puck carrier? A shooter? A basher? Maybe it takes awhile to learn that and maybe it turns out Toffoli provides it.

The kind of thing I'm talking about happened right off the bat, at :14 here for a kind of lurid example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Hlb_JtnmI


Now again, early early times, and maybe next game he's ready for that puck or it hits just a little different. But that kind of thing is what I'm talking about - rust. He's not ready for that puck, it surprised him. New linemates, new role, all that. Hopefully it gels and he has a great year.

Am I nitpicking? Yeah, totally. Toffoli's got less leash from me as a fan because of last year.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Itse

I think swapping Mangiapane and Toffoli around might work better.

I disagree I think Toffoli fits better on the first line. Moving Mangiapane off the 2nd line would weaken it too much and make the Flames an one line team to defend against.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Fire

I disagree I think Toffoli fits better on the first line. Moving Mangiapane off the 2nd line would weaken it too much and make the Flames an one line team to defend against.

Exactly. Mangiapane is the goal scoring threat that, with Kadri, makes the 2nd line an elite 2nd line.

Toffoli will get 25-30 goals playing on the top line. Mangiapane might get 35, but the price of that upgrade is turning us into a one line team.

The way it currently is keeps things more balanced.

The hate for Toffoli on CP is ridiculous. And it is based on one half season where he slumped. He has been a solid goal scorer for years. And he'll continue to be that this season, playing with Huberdeau.

[TheSquatch]

I think it's not "hate" so much as "doubt". There's a worry here I think for some of us that what's happening is we have a "Sutter player" in Tyler Toffoli, a guy who Sutter won with years ago, and who Sutter believes in. The question is what Toffoli is capable of in 2022 as opposed to 2014. Is this a guy who can get his game back in a real way from what we saw last year, or is this a guy who is past his prime and being put in a role he's not especially suited for?

I didn't think he was brought here to be the top line right wing. Can he do it? We're about to find out.

[powderjunkie]

I don't think people thought he slumped until he just couldn't buy a goal in the 1st round.

His reg season 0.30 gpg with the Flames is exactly equal to his career average (but down a little bit on the previous few years).

Seems likely he just disengaged a bit on the worst team in the league and couldn't ramp up enough by playoff time (but the team was good enough in RS that he could catch the slipstream)

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

...The kind of thing I'm talking about happened right off the bat, at :14 here for a kind of lurid example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Hlb_JtnmI


Now again, early early times, and maybe next game he's ready for that puck or it hits just a little different. But that kind of thing is what I'm talking about - rust. He's not ready for that puck, it surprised him. New linemates, new role, all that. Hopefully it gels and he has a great year.

Did it surprise him? It looked to me like Devon Toews intercepted the pass. I don't see what Toffoli could have done differently about that, except maybe pulling back a little further from the blue line? But, yeah, this is an epic nit-pick.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Yes, the obvious "How do you get a top winger" is to trade a defensive chip, and I almost feel like the Flames have enough on the back end to manage this. There's enough talent around, but if you move anyone the slotting gets a lot worse. Add injuries into it and things get dangerous fast. Hanifin is our current best at left D.

So presumably a pickup at the end of the year, where the mil they have left over is enough to cover the contract (presumably expiring).

Maybe Toffoli will be fine, or maybe there's some rotation of wingers between the lines. I don't think it's insurmountable, and if the pair of Huberdeau and Lindholm is going to work with genuine chemistry, then the third guy may ALWAYS look like the third guy out there - kind of like whoever was on the ice with the Sedins at any given time.

BT turned Johnny Walker, a broken Monahan, and Tkachuk into Huberdeau, Weegar, and Kadri. If they need a winger, he'll manage it.

There simply are very few “top wingers” available, even at the price of a top 4 D from Calgary. I assume top line winger is someone better than Toffoli or Mangiapane, so someone who’s elite or very close. Any team interested in a top 4 D is a contender. Why are they giving up a top line RW? It’s just creating a hole to fill another.

You might be able to find someone on a rebuilding team if they are older and not in their plans and you can pay a bunch of picks and prospects. But then I’m assuming their contract is big and you have to fit it under your cap.

The Flames have, without sending a bunch of salary out, maybe $3M assuming Kylington is LTD.