John Frickin Gaudreau!

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

I agree with AshaX here. Prime example is Ferland. He may or may not be ready but he was handled really bad this year. ECHL, scratched, etc then he decided to get himself back into WHL.

That's exactly how you ruin a players confidence.

Hopefully it gets better.

I am really high on Ferland myself, but this was all on Ferland. He was not in shape. His off-season 'incident' seemed to have an effect as well. He didn't look great out there in the games he got into (was not physical, did not even look like he thought of fighting, and seemed behind the play quite a bit due to his speed/conditioning).

I still think that Ferland has potential to become a very decent prospect - a possible fan favorite on the Flames one day, and the type that is sorely missing. I don't think the Flames mishandled him at all, however.

He was just a slightly better version of what Howse was last year. I hope he got a better idea of how much harder he has to work to get to the next level with his recent experience, and I am 100% sure the Flames will be all over him next off-season. He will get a better chance to make the Heat roster, and I fully expect him to be in the lineup as a regular.

I don't think the Heat are 'awesome' at developing any prospects, but last season with all the injuries, few of the prospects looked out of shape. I don't think Nemisz is going to be much of a factor really in the NHL (and I hope he develops more), but I think it is more a refection on poor scouting on him rather than poor development. The whole reason the Flames decided to start an AHL franchise was to get better control on the development of their own prospects after all, if I am not mistaken, and I really do think this is happening. Could things be better? I think so.. but there is only so much you can do. Flames have hired a lot of development personnel in order to improve in this area.

Though this is going a bit off-topic, I am actually glad the Flames didn't rebuild in the last few seasons. Their hockey ops have gotten much better in my opinion every season (drafting and development), and if they decide to proceed with a rebuild, I would be that much more confident with it being successful. I would actually think they put even a bit more money into the development side if they were to go that route.

[Da_Chief]

So the problem has been Wahl, Howse, Ferland etc.?

Isn't it part of development that the Flames org. keep tabs on these guys in the off-season and give them off-season conditioning plans?

Sure you can use ppl like Iggy as an example who do it but thats from long ago, this seems to be an issue every year as some prospects are not following what they were asked to do.

Just look at the difference between someone like Hudler who came from the Wings, much developed and all their guys are like that. What are they developing now? Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson etc same concept and yet out guy like Ferland who everyone had some hopes for last WHL season is on a downward slide right now.

Obviously we're not good like the Wings system but it doesn't seem like theres still a system in place.

The Heat right now, theres 3 maybe 4 guys that may have a future with the Flames in Max, Horak, Bouma and Aliu. Rest are basically taking up spots and plz don't give me the need to win excuse. There's prob. no skill down there. Sure theres more kids coming through the system in next couple of years but will they be any different then the current lot? Guys like Wahl, Howse etc were all high scorers at the Junior level and now they're basically done. All these young players can't possibly have the same deficiencies can they?

I love the Flames but we're playing players like Begin, Butler, Babs, Smith, Sarich who should get overtaken by our prospects but it's not happening. Prime example being Horak, the guy played mostly in the NHL last year, he's not gonna get any better if you keep bouncing him, let him play consistent minutes at the NHL level.

The whole system of development is frustrating, really not sure where this team is heading at all from top to bottom.

[Freeway]

Brodie is playing top 4 minutes in the NHL. He's over-taken a handful of established NHL defensemen already.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I am really high on Ferland myself, but this was all on Ferland. He was not in shape. His off-season 'incident' seemed to have an effect as well. He didn't look great out there in the games he got into (was not physical, did not even look like he thought of fighting, and seemed behind the play quite a bit due to his speed/conditioning).

I still think that Ferland has potential to become a very decent prospect - a possible fan favorite on the Flames one day, and the type that is sorely missing. I don't think the Flames mishandled him at all, however.

He was just a slightly better version of what Howse was last year. I hope he got a better idea of how much harder he has to work to get to the next level with his recent experience, and I am 100% sure the Flames will be all over him next off-season. He will get a better chance to make the Heat roster, and I fully expect him to be in the lineup as a regular.

I don't think the Heat are 'awesome' at developing any prospects, but last season with all the injuries, few of the prospects looked out of shape. I don't think Nemisz is going to be much of a factor really in the NHL (and I hope he develops more), but I think it is more a refection on poor scouting on him rather than poor development. The whole reason the Flames decided to start an AHL franchise was to get better control on the development of their own prospects after all, if I am not mistaken, and I really do think this is happening. Could things be better? I think so.. but there is only so much you can do. Flames have hired a lot of development personnel in order to improve in this area.

Though this is going a bit off-topic, I am actually glad the Flames didn't rebuild in the last few seasons. Their hockey ops have gotten much better in my opinion every season (drafting and development), and if they decide to proceed with a rebuild, I would be that much more confident with it being successful. I would actually think they put even a bit more money into the development side if they were to go that route.

Yes, much of it Ferland's fault.

But one major problem is how the Flames don't work with their players during the off-season as much as other teams. It's embarrassing how much time a team like the Canadians puts into player development when compared to the Flames.

Montreal has a team of development coaches that spend the entire year traveling around the world, making sure their prospects are staying up to date with their training, staying in shape, and ensuring they are still on the development curve. The closest thing the Flames have is Craig Conroy (and this is only recently).

When you look deeper, yeah drafting has been bad, but better development would have produced even a handful of solid NHLers over the last decade.

Look no further than the lack of resources this organization allocates towards development for why we are where we are right now. I think our AHL system is a problem, but it's an issue that goes far beyond that.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

So the problem has been Wahl, Howse, Ferland etc.?
Wahl was a prospect that ALMOST made the team from camp one year. He got checked hard when he got sent down, breaking his orbital bone I believe, and leaving him with a serious concussion. He has never been the same player since.

Howse was never a 'given' to make the NHL, as much as we all wanted that. He was lazy without the puck. He has a great shot, and can be gritty (though he keeps having injury troubles as well). The Heat gave him I believe ~2 months off or so to 'get in shape'. They recalled him to the Heat from the ECHL. They try and give him the time to show something, but he hasn't so far. He is getting opportunities, the Flames sent him to work on 'how to be a pro' camp (pro-trainer, nutritionist and Ward trying to get him making good choices in life). They spend the time with him. Even after they did all of this with Howse, what did he do the following off-season? He came to camp unfit. You can't hold a gun to a prospect's head and force him to eat right, sleep right, and work out right. You give him the tools and support to do it. How could they possibly have done more for Howse? Instead of pointing at him and saying: "See, the Howse is not developing", what exactly have the Flames done wrong with him, and what else could they do?

Ferland I haven't heard much of what they did. However, I will give them the benefit of the doubt on him based on everything else. Did you watch the Heat games? I have. He looked out of place, and I was continually disappointed with his play, his speed, his conditioning and his lack of intensity. He was a big disappointment, and knowing Ward and how he sits down with every single player, I am sure he sat down with Ferland a number of times. I am sure Ferland has a better idea of where he needs to be for the next season. I am also sure that the Flames' development team will more than likely be tracking Ferland a bit more in the offseason. Still, there is only so much you can do.

Isn't it part of development that the Flames org. keep tabs on these guys in the off-season and give them off-season conditioning plans?

Yes, and apparently, they do that. Many of their prospects and players live around the world. Didn't the Flames send their trainer around the world keeping track of all the players and prospects 2 off-seasons ago? The fabled "We found Kipper's magical cabin by the lake"...

Sure you can use ppl like Iggy as an example who do it but thats from long ago, this seems to be an issue every year as some prospects are not following what they were asked to do.

And once again, you can't force them to do it. You give them the tools and knowledge, and let them know this is what they need to do to take the next step. Howse is an EXCELLENT example of this, but he still came to camp last season out of shape. Some prospects just never do it, no matter what you do with them.

Just look at the difference between someone like Hudler who came from the Wings, much developed and all their guys are like that. What are they developing now? Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson etc same concept and yet out guy like Ferland who everyone had some hopes for last WHL season is on a downward slide right now.

That is not a fair assessment. You can not compare a vet like Hudler (29). I will counter with "Look what the Flames have done with Iginla, a perennial work out nut who is one of the most fit players in all the NHL, and a future HHOF."

Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson, etc... exactly where are they?

Tatar - LW: Drafted 2009 2nd round. Got a 9 game stint with the Red Wings 2 years ago, generating 1 goal, 0 assists. Has not played any NHL games last year or this year so far. Good numbers at the AHL level, but is hardly a 'proven' prospect in my eyes.

Gustav Nyquist - LW - Drafted 2008 Round 4. PPG left winger with an 18 game stint (1 goal, 6 assists) last year, and one game this year (0 points). He didn't make the team this year. I like him as a prospect as well, but hardly anything that says: "Look how good Detroit develops!".

Joakim Andersson - Center - Drafted 2007 round 3. Why you mentioned him I am not sure. He has gotten 5 NHL games (0 points) last year, but he has never been a PPG player at any level.

Detroit has been a much better drafting team than the Flames were, and were a much better development team than the Flames. They are known to be good at BOTH. However, starting under Sutter and continuing under Feaster, the Flames have poured so much more $$$ into both drafting and development. I don't think there is a gap between the franchises any longer.

Backlund, Brodie, Baertschi, Bouma and even Irving are all 'graduates' of this program now. The rest on the Heat? Well, most of them aren't skilled. The Flames do NOT have one of the better prospect bases in the NHL, but how many came up last year and did 'fine' (kept winning% steady, or even slightly better?). Nemisz, Byron (though arguable if he was part of the 'development program'), Piskula, Kolanos (call it a 're-development so to speak, after not playing hockey at all for over 1 year) and not sure how many others spent some time on the Flames. None looked really out of place. Most kept their heads above water. None (outside of Baertschi) were really much thought about as possible impact NHL'ers (again, poorer drafting than development).

Again, who out of the Flames' prospects have they damaged? Who has not developed as expected? Who are they 'wrecking'? I agree that Detroit is a good development team (and have been a much better drafting one until recent years), but they aren't exactly 'destroying' the Flames in this regard at all.

Obviously we're not good like the Wings system but it doesn't seem like theres still a system in place.
If there was not a system in place, all those call-ups last year would have looked horrendous. Flames' development team travels quite a lot keeping tabs on them - even in the NCAA where they are getting developed under a different program. The Flames DO work quite extensively with their prospects.

The Heat right now, theres 3 maybe 4 guys that may have a future with the Flames in Max, Horak, Bouma and Aliu. Rest are basically taking up spots and plz don't give me the need to win excuse. There's prob. no skill down there. Sure theres more kids coming through the system in next couple of years but will they be any different then the current lot? Guys like Wahl, Howse etc were all high scorers at the Junior level and now they're basically done. All these young players can't possibly have the same deficiencies can they?

"Need to Win excuse?". Just look at the crowds and the pressure coming back from the community for them not winning. They signed a 'sweetheart' deal in Abbotsford, and there are losses every year. Aside from a 'business and community' standpoint to win, let's remember Darryl. He wanted the Heat so that the Flames could throw all their prospects in the AHL and develop them properly. He tried using an all legitimate prospect team - and the team was floundering. A team NEEDS vets to help show them the way - at every level! However, there is a balance with the team. It isn't all 'vet and winning oriented' like it was in the past (necessitating the Flames starting their own team to control that) and it wasn't all prospect-based. There is a balance there where they get good AHL vets to help shoulder the load. There is a lot of value in that (which is why almost EVERY AHL Team, including the fabled Red Wings - do.).

You keep pointing at Wahl and Howse as 'great prospects that the Flames damaged'. Again, Wahl had a huge injury derail his development, and Howse was never looked upon outside this organization as anything 'solid'. Look at Cameron. GREAT junior numbers, and LA gave up on him completely. They felt he wasn't even worth signing an ELC on, even with those numbers. At least the Flames singed Howse, and have worked with him EXTENSIVELY. You bring up Aliu as someone that could potentially be on the Flames one year, but give absolutely no credit to them helping him turn things around. Basically, NO TEAM was willing to give this kid a chance, and low and behold Flames managed to actually get him ready enough where he stepped onto the ice for an NHL game, and looked pretty darn good enough.



I love the Flames but we're playing players like Begin, Butler, Babs, Smith, Sarich who should get overtaken by our prospects but it's not happening. Prime example being Horak, the guy played mostly in the NHL last year, he's not gonna get any better if you keep bouncing him, let him play consistent minutes at the NHL level.

As Freeway pointed out, Brodie has. Also, Backlund has at least solidified himself on the Flames in at LEAST a 3rd line center role, and is looking better. I would argue that Bouma overtook Begin/Jackman.

As for Horak, there is a lot more to developing and managing a team than simply throwing players on the team and allowing them to develop. The Heat is where a player develops the most, and what would you rather have Horak be doing now? "Developing" on the 4th line (possibly 3rd) or playing top line minutes on the Heat? Ok, so you feel he should be on the 3rd line and getting decent minutes.... then that means we should be getting rid of Stempniak? Hudler? Stajan? Horak DID take Stajan's spot last season, but Stajan took it back this season. Besides, ok, let's make room on the roster for Horak. What happens when there are injuries to the team? We will then either have to call up guys who are not ready to fill a certain spot, or have to make a hasty trade.

Organizations have guys like Horak waiting in the wings. Why aren't the Wings playing Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, and the rest? Does this mean they are screwing up their development? You can't point at Detroit calling them a good development team, and then pointing the finger at the Flames claiming them to be terrible, when they are doing the same thing, and having about the same RECENT success (which has to do with the Flames investing a whole lot more money into development AND scouting to 'catch up' to teams just like the Red Wings).

Keeping Horak on the Heat is 'ruining' him exactly in the same way as keeping Nyquist on the Griffins is 'developing' him?

The whole system of development is frustrating, really not sure where this team is heading at all from top to bottom.

This team is getting LESS frustrating because they ARE getting MUCH better at drafting and development again. They have been a POOR drafting and development team starting in the early 90's (coinciding with the terrible product on the ice, and the Flames becoming a 'poor' team relative to other teams in the NHL). Since '04, the Flames have become better - most notably in the last 3 drafts. Their prospect pool is still 'thin', but is now filled with prospects that require longer-term development (Jankowski, Granlund, Gaudreau) that this organization could not 'chance' on any longer because their development did indeed suck. Now they are better, and the team can 'gamble' more on skilled picks like these that may need a good development program to make it. Picks that under a bad development program, may never make it.

Proof is in the pudding, and the product on the ice in the Dome may be 'frustrating', but what I find most refreshing and optimistic about the organization IS the drafting and development program. That is the ONE BIG HUGE breath of fresh air for me, and gives me reason to be optimistic that the Flames are heading into the right direction regardless of what happens in regards to their moves there. Additionally, if the Flames do end up 'tanking' and doing an accelerated rebuild, I am much more confident that this same drafting and development program can do a much better job of reaching the end goals than I was 5 years ago.

Answer in bold

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Yes, much of it Ferland's fault.

But one major problem is how the Flames don't work with their players during the off-season as much as other teams. It's embarrassing how much time a team like the Canadians puts into player development when compared to the Flames.

Montreal has a team of development coaches that spend the entire year traveling around the world, making sure their prospects are staying up to date with their training, staying in shape, and ensuring they are still on the development curve. The closest thing the Flames have is Craig Conroy (and this is only recently).

When you look deeper, yeah drafting has been bad, but better development would have produced even a handful of solid NHLers over the last decade.

Look no further than the lack of resources this organization allocates towards development for why we are where we are right now. I think our AHL system is a problem, but it's an issue that goes far beyond that.

The Flames don't? How about Jankowski? He was cleared to play by his team, and Weisbrod told Jankowski to take extra time off and make sure he was 100% ready to play again instead of rushing him back. The Flames did the same thing with Baertschi as well (this season AND last season as well).

The Flames development team DO follow their prospects and constantly monitor them and provide feedback on what they need to do, and work with other teams (Junior and NCAA) where they don't have 100% control.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Answer in bold

One of your answers was

This team is getting LESS frustrating because they ARE getting MUCH better at drafting and development again.

Unfortunately, there's just no proof of this yet. We all hope it's the case and feel that our prospects are much better but we haven't seen any results yet so we can't say this definitively.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Montreal has a team of development coaches that spend the entire year traveling around the world, making sure their prospects are staying up to date with their training, staying in shape, and ensuring they are still on the development curve. The closest thing the Flames have is Craig Conroy (and this is only recently).

I guess you conveniently forgot about the last remaining Sutter employed by the Flames, Ron Sutter. He is "Flames Director of Player Development" and does exactly what you are saying we don't have. When I saw Portland in town last year guess who was chatting with the injured Baertschi at the intermission? Yep, Ron Sutter.

LOL

I mean I get when people criticize the Flames for various things. But when you don't have your facts right it makes you look pretty stupid.

[Freeway]

From what I've been told, EVERY Flames prospect has to send reports to Sutter on a regular basis.

[Jagermeister]

Can you guys not bring this discussion to the prospects thread or the Heat thread. I come to this thread to read about Gaudreau related news.

[getbak]

The Beanpot Tournament starts tonight. It's the annual tournament among the big four universities in Boston.

BC won the Beanpot last year, and Gaudreau was the tournament MVP, which launched him into a stellar final couple of months of his freshman season.

BC plays Harvard at 8:00 EST (6:00 MST). Next Monday night, the winner will play the winner of the BU/Northeastern game this afternoon (the losers will play each other Monday afternoon).

All games are at the TD Garden in Boston and being televised by NESN, if you have access to that.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Northeastern beat BU earlier. BC is leading Harvard 3-0 into the 3rd, doesn't sound like Gaudreau has a point yet. Arnold has one assist.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

BC wins 4-1. No points for Gaudreau. The good news is last time BC and Northeastern played a couple weeks ago BC won 9-3, so hopefully he can rack up some points in the game next Monday.

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

BC wins 4-1. No points for Gaudreau. The good news is last time BC and Northeastern played a couple weeks ago BC won 9-3, so hopefully he can rack up some points in the game next Monday.

OMG BC got 4 goals and Gaudreau got no points? Anybody know what's wrong with him right now?

[KOgear]

Originally Posted by blah blah

OMG BC got 4 goals and Gaudreau got no points? Anybody know what's wrong with him right now?

He is busting.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by blah blah

OMG BC got 4 goals and Gaudreau got no points? Anybody know what's wrong with him right now?

The announcers said he's been trying to do too much lately. They also said don't worry, because he's still getting his chances and once he starts using his teammates again we'll see another streak.

edit: I know you were being sarcastic, but the announcers did mention he was mired in a bit of slump.

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

The announcers said he's been trying to do too much lately. They also said don't worry, because he's still getting his chances and once he starts using his teammates again we'll see another streak.

edit: I know you were being sarcastic, but the announcers did mention he was mired in a bit of slump.

Yes I was being sarcastic but I'm still glad to hear a serious answer nonetheless.

[Trailer Fire]

Just a friendly reminder, Johnny Hockey and BC play Northeastern tonight. Unless it's postponed for weather too.

Ill try to update what I can as we move forward.

[J epworth]

Wish we could watch the Beanpot final somehow up here in Canada. Would be nice if the NHL network showed it, or even better if it was on TSN2. Basically the biggest game outside of the frozen four, and they do have the frozen four final on TSN.

[Trailer Fire]

Nm...