2023/2024 Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I mean, you inadvertently summed up middling pretty nicely.

I would say middling is battling for third place in the division or a wildcard spot year after year. Basically the 07-12 Flames (outside of 2009 where they actually looked legit before injuries). This current team is more of a yo-yo. They haven’t missed the playoffs twice in a row since they broke their 5 year drought in 2015. They have only made the playoffs twice in a row once going from first in the west to 8th and getting in by winning a play-in round after the pandemic halted the season. It could be argued the 2 Covid years they were middling.

We saw progression through those years as well
2015 - 3rd in Pacific/8th in the West
2016- bottom 5 in the league
2017- first wildcard, 7th in the west
2018- 10th in the west
2019- 1st in the Pacific/West, 2nd in the NHL
2020- 8th in the west
2021- 5th in the Canadian division
2022- 1st in the pacific
2023- 9th place in the west.

2007-2012 they were 8th, 7th, 5th, 10th, 10th, 9th in the west. That to me is middling. They currently are a team that will overachieve and raise expectations one year and underachieve and lower expectations the next. By all accounts this year should be a bounce back based on a near decade of results. The core of this team is different now as is the GM so maybe they changes but until it does it is easy to follow the narrative this team is going to be much improved this year.

[Jagermeister]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Negative posters just love stewing in each other’s negativity and then project it all as a crisis of organizational failure.

The Flames have been a better than average team for over a decade with legit opportunities to be great, and this year look to be average at worst.

I personally think Conroy injects a massive dose of enthusiasm to the organization and Huska has the hockey IQ to strategize with the evolution of the game. And the organization has the most dominant goalie not already in the NHL.

The future is not as bleak as the negative Nancy’s would have you believe.

Not saying they can't have a good season this year, BUT

- Over the last 10 years the Flames are 15th overall in wins. Since 2000 they are 17th.
- Over the last 10 years the Flames have 16 playoff wins. The teams with less playoff wins: CBJ(15), OTT(13), VAN(12), SEA(7), NJD(6), DET(5), ARI(4), BUF(0). Since 2000 they have 41 playoff wins... only 7 teams (MIN, BUF, FLA, ARI, WPG, CBJ, SEA) have less.

This team has been nothing but average to below average and I understand why fans are frustrated. Why would people want more average? Average doesn't seem to cut it in the NHL.

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by Freddy

The Flames have been a better than average team for over a decade with legit opportunities to be great, and this year look to be average at worst.

You actually just pointed out a negative, that's the problem, no direction, not good and not bad and therefore the middling continues, decade after decade.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I guess I'm in the minority but I think you could get a lot of good pieces by trading Lindholm and Hanifin for futures.

I also don't agree with the thought process that "this team can't rebuild because it has no prospects". Well, that's exactly why I would rebuild, otherwise you find yourself in a worse position than the Flames in 2013 when they sold Iginla and Bouwmeester far later than they should have. The only real difference makers/prospects that came out of the organization during that era were Gaudreau and Backlund - not nearly enough to bring this team over the top after we added Monahan/Tkachuk/the rest of the core.

This is definitely a team that has structured its contracts for the short-term. But again, you can't let the mistakes of the past dictate further miscues for the future. It sucks that Huberdeau and Kadri are on the books for 8/6 more seasons, but those costs are sunk.

If the Flames truly believe they are a contender, by all means make these next moves like they believe it. But I don't even think the Flames organization believes that. They think if they get into the playoffs, there is a chance for another 2004 run. That's how this organization has been run for 20 years.

I actually think you are correct on Lindholm and Hanifin, although I think if you want to maximise futures return, my guess would mean that deal is best struck closer to deadline time, so need to be patient to ride it out, and need to have the guts to pull the trigger if the team is in striking distance.

While I'm not saying the just get in strategy is perfect, I think the last part of your comment highlights something that I think is flawed logic in 2023 when it comes to the "just get in" detractors. I think most would share your view, on just squeaking in, equals hoping for the equivalent of a 2004 miracle run. That's simply not the case in 2023 anymore. That has slowly become "not the case" year over year since the cap was introduced. In 2004, the Flames (who were 6th in the West) were likely more comparable to the last place team in the league, then they were the top 5 teams in the league (3 of which they beat in the playoffs). There was very distinct Have and Have Nots in pre cap NHL, the top tier was usually way above the next 80% of the league. Thus, requires a miracle run.

In today's NHL, I'd argue, that the teams that just squeak in, or even the teams that just missed (like Calgary), are actually much closer in level to Vegas, and Tampa than they are Columbus and Anaheim. Point being, many teams not just Calgary, subscribe to this theory for multiple reasons, but they aren't just rolling the dice and pinning things on a prayer. While I think the arguments that doing a rebuild, are still very valid as opinions on how to make the best possible team, the try to build a playoff team every year doesn't mean what it did 20 years ago. The top 20 teams in the NHL each year, actually have a realistic chance of winning, it's not pinning hopes on beating unsurmountable odds ala 2004.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Jagermeister

Not saying they can't have a good season this year, BUT

- Over the last 10 years the Flames are 15th overall in wins. Since 2000 they are 17th.
- Over the last 10 years the Flames have 16 playoff wins. The teams with less playoff wins: CBJ(15), OTT(13), VAN(12), SEA(7), NJD(6), DET(5), ARI(4), BUF(0). Since 2000 they have 41 playoff wins... only 7 teams (MIN, BUF, FLA, ARI, WPG, CBJ, SEA) have less.

This team has been nothing but average to below average and I understand why fans are frustrated. Why would people want more average? Average doesn't seem to cut it in the NHL.

Just to expand the flames have one of the worst playoff series win percentages in the NHL. They've only won .375% good for 27th in the NHL.

There is only one team that is newer than the Flames who have lost more playoff series.

https://records.nhl.com/standings/playoff-standings

Sure 11 teams have not won the cup, but 8 of those franchises didn't even exist when the Flames won last.

The Flames peers are franchises like Washington, Buffalo, Vancouver and Arizona.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Would be interesting to know if fans consider ownership part of the front office.
I don't have an issue with the ranking. It's up to the team to change that perception.

[Mr.Coffee]

It’s 100% all on ownership, IMO. And specifically, Murray Edwards. And yes, he gets an F for management of this team.

[The Fisher Account]

100% on ownership? Really? I find that really hard to fathom. Can you explain why?

[Ashasx]

hello Mr. Edwards

[dissentowner]

A few tidbits. The Leafs and Nylander are in no hurry to get a deal done and he is not being shopped at all. The Leafs believe he doesn't want to play anywhere but Toronto and feel they are in the position of strength for that reason. Don't expect a contract for Lindholm until the end of training camp at earliest. Both sides are good with contract and term, Lindholm wants to see what the new staff and system are like and how the team is looking. If I were to guess the Lindholm situation will get resolved around the Christmas break. Everything is quiet on Hanifin, things could pick up closer to camp but the Flames are willing to wait given the offers they have gotten, inevitably injuries will happen to a teams blue line and offers will get better. That's all I got right now

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

It’s 100% all on ownership, IMO. And specifically, Murray Edwards. And yes, he gets an F for management of this team.

I don’t know about that. To me an F would be telling Maloney that he has to keep Sutter because of his $8M contract. He would get an F if he decided the team could no longer spend to the cap every year. Treliving leaving could be viewed poorly but it was time for him to go and I think he had a pretty good idea the Toronto job was a real possibility.

Does he get an F because of the comments of Bean stating he can’t use the word rebuild? Is it because he never speaks publicly on the team? Is it the arena deal and how it has been handled?

I am not saying I disagree but I do think it could be much much worse. It feels like the popular thing to do with this team here and in twitter is rip the ownership. I am not opposed to that narrative but I am curious to peoples reasoning.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

A few tidbits. The Leafs and Nylander are in no hurry to get a deal done and he is not being shopped at all. The Leafs believe he doesn't want to play anywhere but Toronto and feel they are in the position of strength for that reason. Don't expect a contract for Lindholm until the end of training camp at earliest. Both sides are good with contract and term, Lindholm wants to see what the new staff and system are like and how the team is looking. If I were to guess the Lindholm situation will get resolved around the Christmas break. Everything is quiet on Hanifin, things could pick up closer to camp but the Flames are willing to wait given the offers they have gotten, inevitably injuries will happen to a teams blue line and offers will get better. That's all I got right now

The Nylander situation sure has a Gaudreau 2.0 feel to me. Treliving vs Gross round 2

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Would be interesting to know if fans consider ownership part of the front office.
I don't have an issue with the ranking. It's up to the team to change that perception.

Was thinking this too. In the case of Carolina, they must. Dunden has rolled up his sleeves and made it obvious he is part of the decision making. It works in their case.

I would prefer this. If owners want to be involved? Fine. Just don't obfuscate and hide behind a GM. Make it clear.

I find it disingenuous when GM's are left to explain decisions that turn out later to have come from above. Like a trade doesn't go down because a certain president/owner wasn't reachable by the deadline.

What's worse......

1) an owner meddling in the background and making unexplainable or bad decisions

or

2) an owner being up front (to some extent) about involvement in bad decisions?

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

A few tidbits. The Leafs and Nylander are in no hurry to get a deal done and he is not being shopped at all. The Leafs believe he doesn't want to play anywhere but Toronto and feel they are in the position of strength for that reason. Don't expect a contract for Lindholm until the end of training camp at earliest. Both sides are good with contract and term, Lindholm wants to see what the new staff and system are like and how the team is looking. If I were to guess the Lindholm situation will get resolved around the Christmas break. Everything is quiet on Hanifin, things could pick up closer to camp but the Flames are willing to wait given the offers they have gotten, inevitably injuries will happen to a teams blue line and offers will get better. That's all I got right now

It's called being "grossed out". Lewis Grossed out that is.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The Nylander situation sure has a Gaudreau 2.0 feel to me. Treliving vs Gross round 2

It's funny - I have a dislike for Gross, mainly because of the drama around the first extension. But on the last peice he came across as somewhat of a victim/patsy. He seemed to have thought he had a deal and then it got yanked.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Jagermeister

Not saying they can't have a good season this year, BUT

- Over the last 10 years the Flames are 15th overall in wins. Since 2000 they are 17th.
- Over the last 10 years the Flames have 16 playoff wins. The teams with less playoff wins: CBJ(15), OTT(13), VAN(12), SEA(7), NJD(6), DET(5), ARI(4), BUF(0). Since 2000 they have 41 playoff wins... only 7 teams (MIN, BUF, FLA, ARI, WPG, CBJ, SEA) have less.

This team has been nothing but average to below average and I understand why fans are frustrated. Why would people want more average? Average doesn't seem to cut it in the NHL.

The Flames have those middle numbers, because they've been wildly inconsistent, not average every year. In the last 5 years they have a division title and a conference title. So they have actually been something other than average. In fact, they been largely non-average, fluctuating between great and awful, neither is average.

So to say they are incapable of anything but average is straight up false. The current roster really looks to embody the jekyl and hyde nature of the team. If this team gels and a 2-3 rookies step up, they could be incredible. If Huberdeau and Kadri continue to play like crap and the rookies look like crap, this team could be in the running for a lottery pick.

The playoff record has been awful. Can't argue with that.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

A few tidbits. The Leafs and Nylander are in no hurry to get a deal done and he is not being shopped at all. The Leafs believe he doesn't want to play anywhere but Toronto and feel they are in the position of strength for that reason. Don't expect a contract for Lindholm until the end of training camp at earliest. Both sides are good with contract and term, Lindholm wants to see what the new staff and system are like and how the team is looking. If I were to guess the Lindholm situation will get resolved around the Christmas break. Everything is quiet on Hanifin, things could pick up closer to camp but the Flames are willing to wait given the offers they have gotten, inevitably injuries will happen to a teams blue line and offers will get better. That's all I got right now

I have zero desire to see Lindholm remain a Flame. Dude wants to see how it goes, and I want to see a player plant a flag in the ground and say "I'm a Calgary Flame - I'll help it go the right way" (mostly I just don't want the Flames to give him an 8 year extension because of his age/performance).

I 100% understand it from his perspective, but the Flames should be looking for a more decisive commitment when they're talking about an 8 year contract extension.

[bax]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I have zero desire to see Lindholm remain a Flame. Dude wants to see how it goes, and I want to see a player plant a flag in the ground and say "I'm a Calgary Flame - I'll help it go the right way" (mostly I just don't want the Flames to give him an 8 year extension because of his age/performance).

I 100% understand it from his perspective, but the Flames should be looking for a more decisive commitment when they're talking about an 8 year contract extension.

The Flames are going through a massive transformation. In the past 14 months the coach has been replaced, the long term GM has been replaced, and both of Elias’ line mates have left (who were arguably the most important pieces on the roster).

He’s likely looking at the last major contract of his career. If dissentowner’s info is accurate it sounds like everything has been negotiated in good faith and now Lindholm just wants to get back to Calgary and see what kind of culture the organization is cultivating.

I really don’t think that should be considered a mark against him considering how big of a mess the organization was last season.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

100% on ownership? Really? I find that really hard to fathom. Can you explain why?

Won’t let em do the obvious. Rebuild.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Dude wants to see how it goes, and I want to see a player plant a flag in the ground and say "I'm a Calgary Flame - I'll help it go the right way"

You can want that if you like. You don't have to work there. He does. In his shoes, I wouldn't be signing any contract until I could see that the new management was keeping its promises and fixing the toxic work environment.

It doesn't matter how many flags he plants or how committed he is, if his bosses continue to screw up as a matter of company policy.