Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Sliver

IDK, it seems obvious an EMS member would be serving the public interest better to be out in their ambulance helping people versus standing in a hallway holding somebody's hand if that person no longer needed a medical professional literally standing beside them.

Sure but to me it's still an overly simplistic way to look at it. My whole point is simply that the resources to make it happen are better spent elsewhere, and spending them there will also alleviate this issue as well

Don't hire more nurses just to sit in waiting rooms, hire more nurses for everywhere because we need them everywhere. Use other methods to improve EMS response times, like some of the things I mention a few posts ago

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Torture

I mean, I feel like there's a middle ground here by just asking two questions:

Does the patient continue to require acute medical assistance?
Is there a Doctor/Nurse available at the hospital to intake/care for them?

Yes/No, paramedic sticks around.
No/doesn't matter, paramedic hits the road.

What seems to be the problem though, is that we get stuck at Yes/No because we don't have the resources in the hospital to intake patients so the paramedic gets stuck with the patient rather than on the road. Maybe No/No is a problem too but I don't know enough to say.

Originally Posted by btimbit

Sure but to me it's still an overly simplistic way to look at it. My whole point is simply that the resources to make it happen are better spent elsewhere, and spending them there will also alleviate this issue as well

Nah, I disagree with this. If I get myself to the hospital, the triage desk checks me out and I get in line based on my condition. Just sit in a waiting room chair unless I'm a total disaster.

If I call an ambulance to take me to the hospital - as I understand it - the EMS people will stay with me until I'm admitted. That makes no sense in all circumstances. If you're good enough to sit in a waiting room chair, let's make you do that so the ambulance can hit the road.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Nah, I disagree with this. If I get myself to the hospital, the triage desk checks me out and I get in line based on my condition. Just sit in a waiting room chair unless I'm a total disaster.

If I call an ambulance to take me to the hospital - as I understand it - the EMS people will stay with me until I'm admitted. That makes no sense in all circumstances. If you're good enough to sit in a waiting room chair, let's make you do that so the ambulance can hit the road.

Yeah and that's exactly it. You have paramedics just sitting there, effectively killing time, meanwhile we hear about times there are no ambulances available.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Nah, I disagree with this. If I get myself to the hospital, the triage desk checks me out and I get in line based on my condition. Just sit in a waiting room chair unless I'm a total disaster.

If I call an ambulance to take me to the hospital - as I understand it - the EMS people will stay with me until I'm admitted. That makes no sense in all circumstances. If you're good enough to sit in a waiting room chair, let's make you do that so the ambulance can hit the road.

That's what I was saying lol

[btimbit]

If people aren't even going to reply to the merits of what I'm saying and are just going to keep repeating 'Nah, get them back on the road' then there's no discussion to even have here

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Torture

That's what I was saying lol

But didn't you say the ambulance could leave if there was a doctor/nurse to intake/care for them? I'm saying even if there isn't, but they don't need constant surveillance, that they just go to the waiting room with everyone else so the ambulance can leave.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Sliver

But didn't you say the ambulance could leave if there was a doctor/nurse to intake/care for them? I'm saying even if there isn't, but they don't need constant surveillance, that they just go to the waiting room with everyone else so the ambulance can leave.

I was saying that the way it should operate IMO (I don't know if this is the case) should depend on A) the patient's status and B) if there's a doctor/nurse available-depending on how you answer A.

Does the patient need care or is there risk that they get worse? - somebody has to stay with them. If there's no doctor/nurse available, that's going to have to be the paramedic.
If the patient can sit in the waiting room chair without risk that they die/get worse/whatever - it shouldn't matter if there's a doctor or nurse available immediately, cya later paramedic time to hit the road.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Torture

I was saying that the way it should operate IMO (I don't know if this is the case) is:

Does the patient need care or is there risk that they get worse? - somebody has to stay with them. If there's no doctor/nurse available, that's going to have to be the paramedic.

If the patient can sit in the waiting room chair without risk that they die/get worse/whatever - it shouldn't matter if there's a doctor or nurse available immediately, cya later paramedic time to hit the road.

Well, there's always that risk, but it's the same risk you carry when you just walk through the front door of the emergency room. I think we just stick with the normal triage protocols we have for walk-in patients and apply those to ambulance patients. If the ambulance patient is no worse than the walk-ins, to the waiting room they go.

I suspect we are saying basically the same thing at this point, though.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by btimbit

If people aren't even going to reply to the merits of what I'm saying and are just going to keep repeating 'Nah, get them back on the road' then there's no discussion to even have here

There's no real discussion though because everyone probably agrees that we should just hire more nurses and doctors.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Slava

There's no real discussion though because everyone probably agrees that we should just hire more nurses and doctors.

So do you and Sliver think that hiring 114 nurses to work waiting rooms is a better solution that this? Because that's what it looks like you guys are saying by completely ignoring the posts

Originally Posted by btimbit

Don't hire more nurses just to sit in waiting rooms, hire more nurses for everywhere because we need them everywhere. Use other methods to improve EMS response times, like some of the things I mention a few posts ago

Originally Posted by btimbit

You want to stretch limited resources? Expand the inter hospital transfer service so it uses less Ambulances. Ditch the rule where units near the end of their shifts can't accept anything but the highest level calls so we don't have units driving from an hour away to deal with a ####ing nose bleed. Remove education barriers so more people can get into the profession. Educate the public more on what is and isn't an emergency. Vastly expand municipal medical services such as CFD's Medical Response Units to deal with more calls since we often arrive before EMS anyway.

And side note, you two are among my favourite posters on CP so don't take my frustration with this topic as anything against you guys

[Torture]

Anywho, I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more traction here, or are we just so used to Smith and the UCP lying about anything and everything that we don't care that Calgary essentially got shut out in the budget?

Smith:

“It just so happens that we didn’t receive our priority list from the City of Calgary,” Premier Danielle Smith said at an unrelated news conference Monday.

Toews:

On Thursday at the Calgary Chamber of Commerce, Finance Minister Travis Toews said there was no “business case” presented to the province for funding to go to the downtown of the province’s largest city.

Shulz:

“We can’t write a blank cheque,” says Municipal Affairs Minister Rebecca Schulz. Nothing can happen until the city makes detailed requests.

Gondek:

“We’ve been incredibly intentional and clear on what it is that we need,” Gondek told Global News Mornings on Friday. “We have a business plan that was approved two years ago. The provincial government themselves, under Minister (Doug) Schweitzer at the time, did a full review and agreed.

“So to hear Minister Toews say that he’s never seen a business case seems odd.

Receipts:

...three and a half months ago, Gondek sent a seven-page budget submission for the province to consider ahead of the 2023-24 budget that was released last week.

Gondek’s Nov. 14, 2022, letter highlighted seven recommendations: “broad” municipal finance reform, enhancing Family and Community Support Services (FCSS) funding, committing to a Bow River reservoir options study, contribution to a multisport fieldhouse, committing funds to income supports and the low-income transit pass, improving access to affordable housing, and a request to match the city’s $100-million investment in the downtown revitalization plan.

That letter was addressed to Toews and CCed to Smith.

Oh, and Gondek provided a copy of the whole letter. Subject "RE: The City of Calgary 2023-24 Budget Submission"
Linked at the bottom of this Global article: https://globalnews.ca/news/9531708/s...gondek-letter/

Guess that wasn't clear enough though.


TLDR, Smith lies, here's a tweet

https://twitter.com/user/status/1633215710901202946

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by btimbit

So do you and Sliver think that hiring 114 nurses to work waiting rooms is a better solution that this? Because that's what it looks like you guys are saying by completely ignoring the posts

And side note, you two are among my favourite posters on CP so don't take my frustration with this topic as anything against you guys

I don't even know where this 114 number comes from. I must have missed the genesis of this conversation hah.

Yeah, I'm all in for hiring more nurses, though. I hope they increase the corporate tax rate to pay for it because I thought it was absolutely brain dead of them to lower it.

But I'm saying you don't even need to hire one nurse with my plan. Just triage ambulance patients as though they're walk-ins. If they need the EMS people to stay with them, then perfect. If they're sitting on a stretcher tying up an ambulance and two paramedics for an anxiety attack that has already passed, then boot them into the waiting room with everyone else so EMS can get back on the streets.

Do we all agree here, though? Feels like maybe we do.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I don't even know where this 114 number comes from. I must have missed the genesis of this conversation hah.

Yeah, I'm all in for hiring more nurses, though. I hope they increase the corporate tax rate to pay for it because I thought it was absolutely brain dead of them to lower it.

But I'm saying you don't even need to hire one nurse with my plan. Just triage ambulance patients as though they're walk-ins. If they need the EMS people to stay with them, then perfect. If they're sitting on a stretcher tying up an ambulance and two paramedics for an anxiety attack that has already passed, then boot them into the waiting room with everyone else so EMS can get back on the streets.

Do we all agree here, though? Feels like maybe we do.

I agree with you on this, except the raising of the corporate tax rate.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I don't even know where this 114 number comes from. I must have missed the genesis of this conversation hah.

Yeah, I'm all in for hiring more nurses, though. I hope they increase the corporate tax rate to pay for it because I thought it was absolutely brain dead of them to lower it.

But I'm saying you don't even need to hire one nurse with my plan. Just triage ambulance patients as though they're walk-ins. If they need the EMS people to stay with them, then perfect. If they're sitting on a stretcher tying up an ambulance and two paramedics for an anxiety attack that has already passed, then boot them into the waiting room with everyone else so EMS can get back on the streets.

Do we all agree here, though? Feels like maybe we do.

Well, for what it's worth, they have been known to bail on waiting with low priority cases if there are urgent calls pending. It's rare but it does happen. I certainly can't disagree with you about there being a baked in procedure for such a thing. Although I can't imagine the framework of what that would look like, especially in the age of liability

It's the prospect of hiring nurses to achieve it when they're needed more elsewhere that pisses me off

[woob]

Originally Posted by Slava

I agree with you on this, except the raising of the corporate tax rate.

I may have missed it, but what's your disagreement with raising the corp. tax rate?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I don't even know where this 114 number comes from. I must have missed the genesis of this conversation hah.

Yeah, I'm all in for hiring more nurses, though. I hope they increase the corporate tax rate to pay for it because I thought it was absolutely brain dead of them to lower it.

But I'm saying you don't even need to hire one nurse with my plan. Just triage ambulance patients as though they're walk-ins. If they need the EMS people to stay with them, then perfect. If they're sitting on a stretcher tying up an ambulance and two paramedics for an anxiety attack that has already passed, then boot them into the waiting room with everyone else so EMS can get back on the streets.

Do we all agree here, though? Feels like maybe we do.

Don't some EMS visits to a home end with just treatment at the home and not transported to the ER? So would it make sense to bring a patient to the ER by ambulance and then boot them to the waiting room? They would have been better off just staying home then and that would be bad judgement by the paramedic.

Sure if a person have gotten themselves to the ER, they should wait because other than screening into triage, we know nothing about them. But why would a person already vetted by a paramedic and deemed important enough to be transported to the ER have to go back to the waiting room?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Don't some EMS visits to a home end with just treatment at the home and not transported to the ER? So would it make sense to bring a patient to the ER by ambulance and then boot them to the waiting room? They would have been better off just staying home then and that would be bad judgement by the paramedic.

Sure if a person have gotten themselves to the ER, they should wait because other than screening into triage, we know nothing about them. But why would a person already vetted by a paramedic and deemed important enough to be transported to the ER have to go back to the waiting room?

Because they should be triaged with everyone else competing for resources. Essentially when you have no ambulances you are saying the condition of the person you are staying with is worse than the average person who calls for an ambulance. If that is not the case then you are killing more people by staying. The ambulances job is also done, they got the person to the hospital. The component of the health care system now failing is the ER.

If people die in the ER then the ER will eventually be fixed. If that problem is covered up by poor and slower ambulance service which kills people less visibly that is less likely to be fixed. Either way the lack of capacity kills about the same number of people

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by Slava

I agree with you on this, except the raising of the corporate tax rate.

Lowering it made no sense and did nothing for the average person. Ours taxes weren't in a prohibitive range we were in line with the rest of Canada.

On a separate note how about we don't give out 20 billion for companies to clean up their wells and use that for healthcare instead.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by woob

I may have missed it, but what's your disagreement with raising the corp. tax rate?

Originally Posted by AFireInside

Lowering it made no sense and did nothing for the average person. Ours taxes weren't in a prohibitive range we were in line with the rest of Canada.

On a separate note how about we don't give out 20 billion for companies to clean up their wells and use that for healthcare instead.

It’s exactly this kind of thing. The government can trim fat in plenty of other areas to add money to healthcare and education. Instead of running around doing pressers giving taxpayer money to private businesses, put it into public services. If (and that’s a big IF), they do things that way and need more money, fine raise the corporate tax rate.

To me, it comes down to prioritizing health and education as the main services delivered by the province.

[Fuzz]

This government has no interest in trimming fat. It's got the largest cabinet ever, with the largest premiers staff ever. They made up a Chief Firearms Office so they could duplicate federal rolls, I read it will be up to 70 people this year. A complete waste of money. They are pushing out the RCMP stealthily(sheriffs deployed in cities, bribing Grand Prairie) to deploy an expensive unnecessary provincial police force that absolutely no one wants. They've thrown money at off road groups instead of charging them user fees, essentially tax dollars to continue mangling nature in our province. They have a department whose sole job is defend corporate interests in one industry, costing us how much each year? Who ####ing knows. They fight legal battles with the feds they can't win, only enriching lawyers on both sides.

There is no shortage of fat to be trimmed, the problem is, they keep eating bacon. Fat increasing.