Israel declares war on Hamas

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Makarov

This sounds reasonable to me. However, we'd have to draw the inverse inference from the fact that Canada, the US, the UK, Australia and New Zealand have all been funding UNRWA for the past decade (which is indeed the case).

There was a funding cut at the start of the year by dozens of nations. Some nations have not reinstated funding, and most others have. That that have reinstated the funding had a lot more strings attached, and many only did so after the UNRWA agreed to stipulations to make sure the funding is used properly.

You can argue why the funding was cut for 3 months, but I guess the go to agreement here is Israel lied, and everyone did it for ####s and giggles and not actually because they were given intelligence that revealed serious issues with how the money is being used and how UNRWA operate.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Azure

There was a funding cut at the start of the year by dozens of nations. Some nations have not reinstated funding, and most others have. That that have reinstated the funding had a lot more strings attached, and many only did so after the UNRWA agreed to stipulations to make sure the funding is used properly.

You can argue why the funding was cut for 3 months, but I guess the go to agreement here is Israel lied, and everyone did it for ####s and giggles and not actually because they were given intelligence that revealed serious issues with how the money is being used and how UNRWA operate.

“Intelligence” that couldn’t be corroborated even by their allies (that have a vested and continued interest in supporting them) and was contradicted by actual findings.

But “####s and giggles” is a pretty light way to describe Israel’s intent.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Azure

There was a funding cut at the start of the year by dozens of nations. Some nations have not reinstated funding, and most others have. That that have reinstated the funding had a lot more strings attached, and many only did so after the UNRWA agreed to stipulations to make sure the funding is used properly.

You can argue why the funding was cut for 3 months, but I guess the go to agreement here is Israel lied, and everyone did it for ####s and giggles and not actually because they were given intelligence that revealed serious issues with how the money is being used and how UNRWA operate.

I find it totally implausible that "serious issues with how the money is being used and how UNRWA operate" were resolved more or less to funders' satisfaction within three weeks. Also, keep in mind that the original claim by some posters was to the effect that "Hamas has hijacked UNRWA for decades now". It is even more implausible (to the point of guffaw) that this could be resolved more or less to the satisfaction of funders in three months.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I presume they were doing their best given a very difficult situation. It's not going to be perfect, or even ideal. But it still saved lives. I would imagine any organization providing aid on the scale Gaza needs would end up having some overlap with Hamas.

Any organization working within Gaza likely has to do a lot of "working with" Hamas. Hamas likely tightly controls who is and who is not allowed to receive funds and goods. The longer an organization is in Gaza, the more integrated Hamas gets with them.

I doubt that things go as far as, for example, having the leadership of Hamas in decision making positions in the UNRWA. It's likely more akin to the way some government organizations would have to work with mafias in countries without a clear rule of law.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Holy crap!

You're the one making the claims.

You can just imagine him during the Iraq war.

Iraq has WMDs. Let's invade.
Is there evidence of that?
What evidence do you have that don't.

Sadly that was the operative Iraq war discussion

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I find it totally implausible that "serious issues with how the money is being used and how UNRWA operate" were resolved more or less to funders' satisfaction within three weeks. Also, keep in mind that the original claim by some posters was to the effect that "Hamas has hijacked UNRWA for decades now". It is even more implausible (to the point of guffaw) that this could be resolved more or less to the satisfaction of funders in three months.

The reports came out in Jan from what I remember, and funding got reinstated the last month, and I know Germany specifically said that they reinstated funding after the report came out to say what happened with recommended changes with the UNRWA agreed too.

Many of the funders agreed to reinstate funding due to the humanitarian crisis despite the issues.

What is amazing to me is how you literally can't admit that Hamas, as the ruling entity in the Gaza Strip, who have for years pillaged resources to build their capabilities to attack Israel, would have completely left the UNRWA alone and not manipulated them to get what they wanted.

Talk about head stuck in the sand waving your legs around like a chicken scenario.

[Bagor]

Still waiting on the "overwhelming" evidence.

[Zary's-Mustache]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-fi...eid-state/amp/

This poll was in 2021. Way before Oct 7th and the bigger attack on Gaza.

22% of Jewish Americans believe israel is commiting genocide on the Palestinians.

Again that was before Oct 7th...wonder what that number would be now.

[Manhattanboy]

Israel has proposed a three phase permanent ceasefire in Gaza.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-804543

“The ceasefire agreement would see the release of all remaining hostages, including soldiers and the bodies of captives killed.

Israel has proposed a three phase ceasefire deal and plan for the day after the war, President Joe Biden said on Friday afternoon during a special address from the White House.

Biden laid out the terms for the agreement which would begin with six weeks of ceased hostilities in which women, children, elderly and injured hostages would be released. During the six weeks Israel and Hamas would negotiate the necessary arrangements to get to phase two, which is a permanent ceasefire.”

[Zary's-Mustache]

Sounds like a bad deal for Gaza. 6 week ceasefire where Israel gets everything they want and no guarantee to a long term ceasefire? Yeah doubt that gets approved.

Edit: I should add that if that deal was for a permanent ceasefire I would think Hamas would agree but what's to say Israel doesn't get what they want after 6 weeks are over and just say they couldn't get to phase 2?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Sounds like a bad deal for Gaza. 6 week ceasefire where Israel gets everything they want and no guarantee to a long term ceasefire? Yeah doubt that gets approved.

Edit: I should add that if that deal was for a permanent ceasefire I would think Hamas would agree but what's to say Israel doesn't get what they want after 6 weeks are over and just say they couldn't get to phase 2?

Especially when their national security adviser already stated yesterday that they won't be going to stage 2.

Israel’s National Security Adviser Tzachi Hanegbi today told relatives of several hostages held in Gaza that the current government will not agree to end the war in exchange for Hamas releasing all the hostages it has been holding since October 7, according to quotations published by Channel 12 tonight.

Hanegbi told the families at the meeting earlier today, however, that he did think the government would be able to achieve a “stage one” deal for the return of hostages in the so-called humanitarian category in the near future, according to the report.

The national security adviser, a close aide to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, rebuked and insulted the relatives, the report also said, and one female relative left the meeting in tears.

Hamas has repeatedly demanded that Israel end the war as a core element of any further hostage deal.

Channel 12 quoted Hanegbi telling the families that, “The first stage of the deal, the humanitarian phase, we will be able to achieve within a few short months. It won’t take many months and not years.”

But, he reportedly added, “I don’t believe that this government will succeed in completing the entire deal. This government will not take a decision on stopping the war for the return of all the hostages.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...tell-families/

Makes perfect sense. Propose a three phase permanent ceasefire deal with intentions to stop after phase 1.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Sounds like a bad deal for Gaza. 6 week ceasefire where Israel gets everything they want and no guarantee to a long term ceasefire? Yeah doubt that gets approved.

Edit: I should add that if that deal was for a permanent ceasefire I would think Hamas would agree but what's to say Israel doesn't get what they want after 6 weeks are over and just say they couldn't get to phase 2?

It actually sounds very similar to the deal that Hamas agreed to about a month ago. Release women and elderly during the first 6 weeks and then release the soldiers during phase 2, with phase 2 including a permanent end to hostilities between the sides.

It's tragically hilarious that Netanyahu could have had this deal weeks ago, but instead chose to prolong the war.

[Bownesian]

Unless I'm mistaken, the Hamas offer had Israel exiting all of Gaza in phase 1 rather than them just pulling back from densely populated regions.

Leaving Israel in control of the Egypt border, the central highway and everything outside of the cities is a very different strategic situation.

[Agamemnon]

I have a practical question. For those who insist on the 'elimination of Hamas' - what are your feelings on the US attempt to 'eliminate the Viet Minh' from Vietnam? The US tried a heck of a lot harder and used a lot more resources, and utterly failed after killing a million.

You can't kill a movement, you can't kill Hamas. So what's a practical objective for Israel here...? Because saying 'until Hamas is eliminated' probably means 'forever'.

[Bownesian]

The allies imposed the elimination of Nazism and Japanese nationalist imperialism on Germany and Japan at the end of WWII. It required total victory, total disarmament, the imposition of new constitutions, years of foreign policing, rebuilding and reeducation.

It did not include turning the government back over to Nazi party members, or a return to Japanese imperialistic supremacy on day 1 after the ceasefire.

I'm sure this is what Israel wants - total disarmament, destruction of fighting and smuggling tunnels, an end of Hamas as a fighting and governing force, and a rebuilt Gaza ruled by Palestinians who recognize Israel's right to exist, with security and policing guaranteed by some other party.

As long as they don't get that, Israel will control the borders, seek out the last of the tunnels, and inflict a lot of misery as they fight an urban counterinsurgency.

It's a different situation from Vietnam or Iraq where the borders are vast and ultimately not controllable. Now that Israel controls the Egypt border, there is no longer a means for substantial quantities of munitions to cross to Hamas' hands.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Oh I edited that because I forgot that 25% of Israel is Arab, I know you guys like to claim apartheid and that doesn't really line up with that very well.

It's cool guys, he has a Black friend, so he can't be racist.

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Israel has proposed a three phase permanent ceasefire in Gaza.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-804543

“The ceasefire agreement would see the release of all remaining hostages, including soldiers and the bodies of captives killed.

Israel has proposed a three phase ceasefire deal and plan for the day after the war, President Joe Biden said on Friday afternoon during a special address from the White House.

Biden laid out the terms for the agreement which would begin with six weeks of ceased hostilities in which women, children, elderly and injured hostages would be released. During the six weeks Israel and Hamas would negotiate the necessary arrangements to get to phase two, which is a permanent ceasefire.”

This isn't possible, according to some here Israel doesn't want the hostages released.

[Zary's-Mustache]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...88p5p2zvxo.amp

Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has insisted there will be no permanent ceasefire in Gaza until Hamas’s military and governing capabilities are destroyed and all hostages are released.
His statement comes after US President Joe Biden announced Israel had proposed a three-stage plan to Hamas aimed at reaching a permanent ceasefire.

Shocking.....Netanyahu not waking up tomorrow would bring so much peace in this world. What a wicked evil POS. He deserves to have his grave pissed on.

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...88p5p2zvxo.amp



Shocking.....Netanyahu not waking up tomorrow would bring so much peace in this world. What a wicked evil POS. He deserves to have his grave pissed on.

Shocking...You're angry that someone wants to destroy a terrorist organization. Netanyahu dying would change literally nothing, Hamas would still rape and butcher anyone they could get their hands on.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Shocking...You're angry that someone wants to destroy a terrorist organization. Netanyahu dying would change literally nothing, Hamas would still rape and butcher anyone they could get their hands on.

He’s right. The guy is a piece of human garbage. Butchering innocent lives of women and children.