General Ongoing Coyotes saga thread

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by valo403

That would be valid if that was the only instance of them having an opportunity to sue and not acting upon it.

Once again, it hasn't proven necessary.

GWI's goal isn't to place a team in Quebec City. Their goal is to prevent taxpayers from subsidizing a professional sports franchise.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Once again, it hasn't proven necessary.

GWI's goal isn't to place a team in Quebec City. Their goal is to prevent taxpayers from subsidizing a professional sports franchise.

So they've just turned a blind eye to 2 years of payments why exactly?

[TorqueDog]

That I don't know the answer to. Is Glendale expecting to get the past two years of payments returned to them somehow?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by valo403

I really don't understand the concept that Goldwater somehow has the ability to completely scuttle this deal, who is giving these media members this idea? It seems like they are unable to process that this is a completely different arrangement than the Hulsizer deal, GWI speaking up isn't going to impact the financing as it did with that deal. The only way GWI can block this deal is by either swaying a vote on the Glendale council or through litigation, and the latter tactic wouldn't likely prevent anything in the short term.

Assuming they could show they had a good case I could see it affecting the 'owners' ability to borrow money, which will be hard enough after todays turmoil on the markets.

Like so many NHL 'owners' it comes down to a guy without the money to pay for the team having to go to the market to make it happen.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

That I don't know the answer to. Is Glendale expecting to get the past two years of payments returned to them somehow?

I don't believe so, they made a bit of noise about it but with the funds already in escrow I don't see how that could happen.

I don't know GWI's reasons for not bringing suit against those payments either, maybe they think they'll have better luck under slightly different circumstances and are gearing up to bring suit. I'm just going on what I've seen from them, and that seems to be more of political lobby group than a group interested in large scale litigation. We don't know much about how this deal is going to be structured, but with it not appearing to be reliant on any sort of bond financing the threat of possible litigation (or even just the bad publicity) doesn't have the impact it had previously.

I'm actually torn on what I'd like to see. Part of me wants to see this deal finished and the Coyotes given a real chance to work in Phoenix. The other part of me is very interested to see litigation just to get an opportunity to see all of the layers of the transaction peeled back.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Assuming they could show they had a good case I could see it affecting the 'owners' ability to borrow money, which will be hard enough after todays turmoil on the markets.

Like so many NHL 'owners' it comes down to a guy without the money to pay for the team having to go to the market to make it happen.

It could, but I suspect that's something that has already been considered in the last few months of putting together financing. I have no idea how Jamison is financing this, he may very well not be all that reliant on the market.

[woob]

Originally Posted by valo403

I'm actually torn on what I'd like to see. Part of me wants to see this deal finished and the Coyotes given a real chance to work in Phoenix.

I just don't understand this logic. I know you're not in the minority either as it seems many people think this team can work there. What is going to change now that would make this team work in that location/market? The only thing that has happened is that Phoenix has started winning and you can still walk in there and get great seats to most games during the year. It's a bit mind boggling to me.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by woob

I just don't understand this logic. I know you're not in the minority either as it seems many people think this team can work there. What is going to change now that would make this team work in that location/market? The only thing that has happened is that Phoenix has started winning and you can still walk in there and get great seats to most games during the year. It's a bit mind boggling to me.

That's certainly not the only thing that has happened. I'd say that a sale and ownership stability are an even bigger boost than a winning team. People aren't going to invest in a team that has one foot out the door. Putting down a solid foundation in the community, and Jamison has a track record of doing that in a non-traditional market, is a huge development.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by woob

I still think whomever buys this team will still lose money. I'm sure they're going to pick up some more ticket sales with this playoff run and a new marketing campaign via new ownership. However, it still comes down to one issue for me: Arena location. I think because of that fact and that fact alone, whomever operates this team is always going to be facing an uphill battle with filling the seats. Which is a shame, because if that arena were more central and within 30 minutes or less from any point in the city, I think they'd be filling those seats night after night. Maybe not sold out, but definitely better than I've seen the numerous times I've been there.

the Coyotes played in the Downtown arena from 1996 through 2003.
Attendance was dropping from 15,500 when they first got there to 13,200 the last they were downtown attendance dropped 2,500 from the first 3 year the coyotes were there..... I don't think that the placing of the arena has much of an impact as everyone has to drive everywhere all the time. The lack of support is more tied to the general population not caring about hockey at all.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

the Coyotes played in the Downtown arena from 1996 through 2003.
Attendance was dropping from 15,500 when they first got there to 13,200 the last they were downtown attendance dropped 2,500 from the first 3 year the coyotes were there..... I don't think that the placing of the arena has much of an impact as everyone has to drive everywhere all the time. The lack of support is more tied to the general population not caring about hockey at all.

Have you even been to the old Arena? They removed a ton of seats because they were obstructed view. You couldn't even see one of the damn nets!

[JerryUnderscore]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

the Coyotes played in the Downtown arena from 1996 through 2003.
Attendance was dropping from 15,500 when they first got there to 13,200 the last they were downtown attendance dropped 2,500 from the first 3 year the coyotes were there..... I don't think that the placing of the arena has much of an impact as everyone has to drive everywhere all the time. The lack of support is more tied to the general population not caring about hockey at all.

Also to be fair, America West Arena (now US Airways Arena) sucked as far as parking and getting in and out of the area. Phoenix doesn't have a good transit system because the urban sprawl is ridiculous. Jobing.com Arena on the other hand is way easier to get to in a driving cultural (right off the 101 Highway) and has a better parking system. The casual fan (which anywhere you go is most fans) would much rather go to Jobing.com for a game than to US Airways for a game.


The other thing to keep in mind is that most people in the Southwest US didn't grow up with hockey. They don't have the privilege of HNIC. I think we take for granted that, compared to baseball and basketball, hockey is actually a rather complicated game. To the average observer icing, getting kicked out of a faceoff, penalty's and powerplays, they're all confusing. Over Christmas I took my mom to her first hockey game and had to continually explain the rules to her.

Just because a lot of Americans (not trying to over generalize) don't know hockey yet, doesn't mean they don't care about it. I think the most important thing for the new ownership group to do will be to try and educate Phoenix about hockey as much as possible. If it takes selling cheap tickets and constantly explaining things, so be it.

Personally, I would probably try to push more for hockey in schools, even if it's just being played during gym class.

[nik-]

From the posts of people in the area, it sounds like every possible piece of infrastructure is stacked against them going to games.

[tjinaz]

From the posts of people in the area, it sounds like every possible piece of infrastructure is stacked against them going to games.

I work in Tempe and I can get to weeknight games going down the I-10 through downtown in about 50 min. Would it be easier if they were downtown or Scottsdale... for me yes. I liked downtown, I could get to games in about 15 min from where I live. Is it an annoyance... yes. Does it stop me from going. No.

There are many contributing factors that have been beat to death over the year and this is one of them. The arena is not in the most favorable area but it is not the worst either. The fact that it is attached to a major retail outlet as well as the Cabelas shows there is infrastructure in place and many people do frequent the area. There is also a plan to extend the recently introduced light rail infrastructure in that direction as well. Putting a venue in a central location is always preferred but is not always the case.

Just because a lot of Americans (not trying to over generalize) don't know hockey yet, doesn't mean they don't care about it. I think the most important thing for the new ownership group to do will be to try and educate Phoenix about hockey as much as possible. If it takes selling cheap tickets and constantly explaining things, so be it.

This is an interesting quote. Not many people realize that Hockey is taking root in Phoenix. According to Hockey USA there is an increase of 9.3% in registered hockey players of all ages in Arizona and 15 members of youth organizations are going on to play for Men's NCAA DIV I hockey programs.

http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/2011...rs-in-2010-11/

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--pr...lt-states.html

“When the NHL expanded into ‘nontraditional’ U.S. markets, participation and access to participation grew,” said Pat Kelleher of USA Hockey. Simple but true: rinks were built, people came.
And it’s not just tots. Nate Ewell, Interim Executive Director of College Hockey Inc., says Arizona produced 15 Division I men's players last year. That’s the same number as New Hampshire. And while Tennessee produced only two, it’s clear many of the youths picking up the sport are feeding through the entire development system. Chris Peters, who runs The United States of Hockey website, reports membership eclipsed half a million for the first time in 2010-11. The largest gains came in the age 6-and-under category and the overall skill level is improving, too.

[GGG]

It takes at least 20 years to build a hockey fan base out of nothing. Your fanbase comes from having generations of people go to games and having kids grow up playing the games. So until the early adopters kids grow up and have there own kids who grow up watching the game it is a real tough sell. The rise of NHL players coming from California are essentially Gretzky babies.

So after 16 years in Phoenix you are just starting to cultivate the second generation of fans. Kids who were 10 when the Coyotes started are now 26 and buying there own tickets. Really you need another 10 years so that you start to have Grandchildren of original fans playing hockey.

So to judge the market as having no potential is premature. It took Gretzky and time to make hockey cool in California and it still is a fight for fans. So for a team that was never good and played boring hockey for years to attract fans will take some time.

[JerryUnderscore]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

This is an interesting quote. Not many people realize that Hockey is taking root in Phoenix. According to Hockey USA there is an increase of 9.3% in registered hockey players of all ages in Arizona and 15 members of youth organizations are going on to play for Men's NCAA DIV I hockey programs.

This is great news. I moved away from Phoenix in 2004, so I'm glad to hear its taking root more. I would love to see Phoenix become a serious, legitimate hockey town.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GGG

It takes at least 20 years to build a hockey fan base out of nothing. Your fanbase comes from having generations of people go to games and having kids grow up playing the games. So until the early adopters kids grow up and have there own kids who grow up watching the game it is a real tough sell. The rise of NHL players coming from California are essentially Gretzky babies.

So after 16 years in Phoenix you are just starting to cultivate the second generation of fans. Kids who were 10 when the Coyotes started are now 26 and buying there own tickets. Really you need another 10 years so that you start to have Grandchildren of original fans playing hockey.

So to judge the market as having no potential is premature. It took Gretzky and time to make hockey cool in California and it still is a fight for fans. So for a team that was never good and played boring hockey for years to attract fans will take some time.

There is exactly zero Coyote presence/base in Phoenix. Their are no Coyote Jerseys, T-shirts or hats. If I didn't know that theres was a NHL team in Phoenix I would never suspect one was there.

Well ok Papa Johns had half price pizza's the day after a Coyote or ASU women's basketball win.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

There is exactly zero Coyote presence/base in Phoenix. Their are no Coyote Jerseys, T-shirts or hats. If I didn't know that theres was a NHL team in Phoenix I would never suspect one was there.

Well ok Papa Johns had half price pizza's the day after a Coyote or ASU women's basketball win.

i don't remember seeing very many Flames jerseys or hats in the early 2000's. the Coyotes have been terrible forever, and when they finally do get good then ownership is in turmoil and a relocation seems inevitable. if the ownership is stable and the Coyotes continue to make the playoffs and the fans STILL don't show up, then i'll believe that hockey just doesn't belong in Arizona

everything that's being said about Phoenix was said about Nashville, but now with some post season success the Predators have a very loyal fanbase growing. with the Coyotes run this year and apparently the ownership issue settled, it's going to be very interesting to see the season ticket sales for them in the fall

[JerryUnderscore]

You know, I guess I would understand more if people just said, "I hate the idea of hockey anywhere South of the 36th parallel."

If people hated LA, Dallas, Florida, Tampa Bay, Nashville and Carolina just as much as they have a hate on for the Coyotes... I guess I could understand but this seems to be a very singular anger. That just baffles me.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

There is exactly zero Coyote presence/base in Phoenix. Their are no Coyote Jerseys, T-shirts or hats. If I didn't know that theres was a NHL team in Phoenix I would never suspect one was there.

That stuff can turn really fast though. There's a bit of a threshold, but once it becomes normal, it sort of feeds on itself. And once it's normal, people will wear them if they have them, even if they're not huge fans.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by JerryUnderscore

You know, I guess I would understand more if people just said, "I hate the idea of hockey anywhere South of the 36th parallel."

If people hated LA, Dallas, Florida, Tampa Bay, Nashville and Carolina just as much as they have a hate on for the Coyotes... I guess I could understand but this seems to be a very singular anger. That just baffles me.

There are a lot of people who do hate all teams in the south.

But in a lot of ways, the Coyotes play to the Canadian inferiority complex. Those rotten #######s "stole" "our" team! And since the Coyotes have been linked to relocating to Winnipeg, Toronto, Hamilton, K-W and Quebec City, there is a lot of misplaced anger generated by people who think those cities deserves a team more.

Logically, I have a hard time believing the Coyotes will ever make money in the desert. But if someone wants to try, more power to them. The NHL has been floating expansion balloons since Bill Daly dropped a hint in that regard in 2009ish. The 32 team NHL is coming, and you can expect that at least one of those new teams will be in Canada.