[News] LeBrun/Dreger - Flames open for Business

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by timun

As I'm the one who brought up Binnington, I think I need to clarify. I posited a scenario that Markstrom be traded to St. Louis for Binnington because both Markstrom and Binnington had bad years last year, are having better years this year, and make the exact same amount of money (AAV).

My overarching point was that if one would not trade Markstrom straight up for Binnington, one-for-one, then one has to concede no other team would acquire Markstrom without salary retention. Binnington is four years younger and, although he had a bad year last year, he was better than Markstrom, and is better than Markstrom this year too. If any Flames fan wouldn't immediately agree to a Markstrom-for-Binnington trade, they're dreaming if they thing the Flames wouldn't have to retain some of Markstrom's salary to trade him elsewhere.

But if a team doesn’t have a Binnington or Markstrom level goalie then it is a different discussion. I wouldn’t want Binnington because it is a lateral move but if I was Edmonton or Carolina I’d have a different viewpoint

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Turcotte is not a bad pickup, as long as you’re not thinking of him as a future first line center. Those days are gone. IIRC he was compared to Bergeron in his draft year. Or maybe that was Hayton.

Anyway, I think he could still carve out a ceiling of Danault/Backlund career, with a Bonino-like floor.

He’s not a bad pick up when we will need centers of all kind (roster/AHL/junior) when Lindholm is gone.

Speaking of Hayton I see he had a decent year last year and I wonder about him being a big piece in the Hanifin trade? Would the Coyotes move him? Not the greatest start this year. I feel like with Lindholm being dealt the Flames will chase a center like Lundell, Hayton or Frost.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

We're not going to get an elite prospect for Markstrom though.

Turcotte could be something. There's upside there where he could become something more (if the injury issues are behind him). Turcotte is a big swing. You have to take some big swings if you want to find great players in situations where you normally don't get them (like trading a goalie).

Would much rather rely on our scouts and get picks than a 23 year old former top prospect who now is just a guy who next year has to clear waivers to go down to the minors. There is a decent chance you can grab him on the waiver wire next October or give them a 4th round pick to prevent someone else from grabbing him on the waiver wire.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Speaking of Hayton I see he had a decent year last year and I wonder about him being a big piece in the Hanifin trade? Would the Coyotes move him? Not the greatest start this year. I feel like with Lindholm being dealt the Flames will chase a center like Lundell, Hayton or Frost.

All good options. With Frost getting scratched I hope we can snag him for cheap.

Hayton is interesting… could see the coyotes dealing him but only for an upgrade. Otherwise, what’s the point?

[Hackey]

With Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev, Zadorov, the Flames could potentially have two extra 1sts and two extra 2nds. I'd much rather see them draft and develop those players over taking on some other teams prospects who haven't lived up to their potential.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

All good options. With Frost getting scratched I hope we can snag him for cheap.

Hayton is interesting… could see the coyotes dealing him but only for an upgrade. Otherwise, what’s the point?

Dube for Ftost

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Hackey

With Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev, Zadorov, the Flames could potentially have two extra 1sts and two extra 2nds. I'd much rather see them draft and develop those players over taking on some other teams prospects who haven't lived up to their potential.

No ####, if we are going for guys like Turcotte we might as well pick up Nolan Patrick while we are at it.

[jg13]

Sell every last pending UFA for picks. Have a young team ready to make a step in 27-28 where we also sign Makar as the new arena opens and win multiple cups.

Easy.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Bonded

But if a team doesn’t have a Binnington or Markstrom level goalie then it is a different discussion. I wouldn’t want Binnington because it is a lateral move but if I was Edmonton or Carolina I’d have a different viewpoint

Haha, in a very roundabout way you're further reinforcing my point. "I wouldn't want Binnington because it is a lateral move" is an entirely false premise: objectively, Jordan Binnington is an upgrade on Jacob Markstrom. And you still wouldn't trade for him because you're attaching a higher value to Markstrom than, objectively, he has.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by timun

My overarching point was that if one would not trade Markstrom straight up for Binnington, one-for-one, then one has to concede no other team would acquire Markstrom without salary retention.

That does not follow at all, unless you are contending that Binnington also has no value without salary retention.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by timun

Haha, in a very roundabout way you're further reinforcing my point. "I wouldn't want Binnington because it is a lateral move" is an entirely false premise: objectively, Jordan Binnington is an upgrade on Jacob Markstrom. And you still wouldn't trade for him because you're attaching a higher value to Markstrom than, objectively, he has.

No, as a team with Markstrom why’d I want to trade for Binnington because they are similar goaltenders. You are either overrating Binnington or underrating Markstrom. Their results are basically the same over the last three years and Markstrom has slightly better career results.
If I was Carolina who doesn’t have a goalie as good as either I’d take whoever I could acquire cheaper.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by timun

Haha, in a very roundabout way you're further reinforcing my point. "I wouldn't want Binnington because it is a lateral move" is an entirely false premise: objectively, Jordan Binnington is an upgrade on Jacob Markstrom. And you still wouldn't trade for him because you're attaching a higher value to Markstrom than, objectively, he has.

Assuming stats of goalies on different teams with differing styles and personnel can be "objective", over the last 4 seasons plus the start this year, just looking at save%:

Goalie A: .912; .910; .901; .894 and .912

Goalie B: .918; .904; .922; .892 and .904

There's not a lot of space between these two sets of stats as a whole. In fact, excluding this season the two have an identical save% over the entire 4 years. They have identical cap hits but Markstrom has one fewer years left and is 3 years older.

[getoverit]

But one has actually won the cup. does that factor?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by getoverit

But one has actually won the cup. does that factor?

Not to me, especially not in 2023.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by timun

Haha, in a very roundabout way you're further reinforcing my point. "I wouldn't want Binnington because it is a lateral move" is an entirely false premise: objectively, Jordan Binnington is an upgrade on Jacob Markstrom. And you still wouldn't trade for him because you're attaching a higher value to Markstrom than, objectively, he has.

no, that is an opinion - and one that is highly debatable

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

no, that is an opinion - and one that is highly debatable

Locker room presence alone it’s trading a leader for a ####ing nightmare.

[Jetfire]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

no, that is an opinion - and one that is highly debatable

Binnington is as inconsistent as Marky but with even wilder ups and downs and a crap attitude on top. I would absolutely never want him under practically any circumstances. Don't know how buddy thinks he's a clear upgrade.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Interesting article on the Athletic about the best drafting teams since 2007. The first part was the bottom half of the league. 5 of the 7 Canadian teams were on the list and the 2 that were not are the Flames and Leafs. Oilers were 5th worst, Buffalo the worst.

Edmonton had 10 top 10 picks in that timeframe 4 more than any other team.

I am interested to see where the Flames rank. They are definitely getting a high ranking based on many of their late round picks panning out. Brodie, Gaudreau, Fox, Mangiapane all being closer to top of the lineup players. Kulak, Brossoit carved out decent careers. Tkachuk at 6 was like landing a top 3 pick.

Seeing the Flames as a top half of the league drafting group over a 15 year span should give us hope that the rebuild/retool has a good chance of succeeding. It’s likely a main reason they only picked top 10 3x post Iginla before they had a team that could make the playoffs.

Update on this. The Flames ranked 2nd, next to only Dallas
Just imagine what they could do with more picks. The amateur scouting is the strength of the org. They need to play into that not against it

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Update on this. The Flames ranked 2nd, next to only Dallas
Just imagine what they could do with more picks. The amateur scouting is the strength of the org. They need to play into that not against it

Picks.

Picks.

Picks.

Gimme Picks!

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Update on this. The Flames ranked 2nd, next to only Dallas
Just imagine what they could do with more picks. The amateur scouting is the strength of the org. They need to play into that not against it

Imagine operating like a small market team and building through the draft? One can dream. Seems like low hanging fruit to turn this thing around and avoid a long and painful rebuild.