[News] With the 13th OA pick the Flames select RW Matthew Coronato

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Only the lousy ones. I think I know exactly who you are talking about, but only the lousy ones that were insignificant AHL'ers at best never got a 'fair shot'. Few earned it. Calgary was JUST starting to turn around their drafting and development program. Back then, we all were happy with guys like Armstrong making a push one year.



I would say Calgary probably gave more chances back then to guys who never got another sniff again anywhere else. The one guy that I faintly recall complaining never got a sniff, but he wasn't even good in the AHL, and never went on to play pro at any other level either.

I'm not sure the Flames drafting and development is any better now than it ever has been now unless you go with the typical rose coloured glasses that all of the current prospects will make it.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I'm not sure the Flames drafting and development is any better now than it ever has been now unless you go with the typical rose coloured glasses that all of the current prospects will make it.

"Typical rose coloured glasses"? Where do you see anything on CP about "all of the current prospects mak[ing] it?"

[BrennyBaller]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Only the lousy ones. I think I know exactly who you are talking about, but only the lousy ones that were insignificant AHL'ers at best never got a 'fair shot'. Few earned it. Calgary was JUST starting to turn around their drafting and development program. Back then, we all were happy with guys like Armstrong making a push one year.



I would say Calgary probably gave more chances back then to guys who never got another sniff again anywhere else. The one guy that I faintly recall complaining never got a sniff, but he wasn't even good in the AHL, and never went on to play pro at any other level either.

Why so secretive? Who is the player you recall complaining?!

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

"Typical rose coloured glasses"? Where do you see anything on CP about "all of the current prospects mak[ing] it?"

Very common that people think their team's draft has turned around before guys flame out in the pros.

Very likely the last 4 drafts will produce 5-8 full time (200+ games) NHLers. I'd bet most people would think a higher number than that.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Very common that people think their team's draft has turned around before guys flame out in the pros.

Very likely the last 4 drafts will produce 5-8 full time (200+ games) NHLers. I'd bet most people would think a higher number than that.

This is true but you can also look for leading indicators - including things like if the player is progressing post draft, and if they would theoretically go higher in a re-draft.

For me it's also an evolution of the philosophy. They are clearly taking swings at players with high upside, which is entirely what I believe the approach should be including in later rounds.

Proof will be in the puddin'.

[Knut]

Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane, Dube, Gaudreau all currently top 9 F and Top 4 D on this team. Those are guys nabbed out of the first round.

There is definitely better drafting right now. Prior to Johnny and Brodie how many hits outside of round 1 were there with the team since Theo Fleury.

They are loading a tonne of prospect bullets into the chamber right now with these later round higher risk picks. Guys with upside but obvious flaws (too small, too fat, cant play defense etc).

I think you have more of an issue with Development, not drafting. I think there is improvement there as well. There are a lot of later round picks that seem to be improving year over year at a higher rate than their peers.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Very common that people think their team's draft has turned around before guys flame out in the pros.

Very likely the last 4 drafts will produce 5-8 full time (200+ games) NHLers. I'd bet most people would think a higher number than that.

Why are you limiting your scope to only the last four drafts?

The post you quoted specifically identified players who were in the system more than a decade ago as the reference point from which the Flames drafting has improved. And he is not wrong: Between 2005–2010 the Flames drafted four players who played +200 NHL games. In the next five years they drafted eight, with another two who will pass this mark in the next year or two.

The Flames drafting and development has been objectively better over the past decade than it was in the previous one.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Knut

Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane, Dube, Gaudreau all currently top 9 F and Top 4 D on this team. Those are guys nabbed out of the first round.

From a drafting POV you have to give them credit for Fox too. Though not from a development POV.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Knut

Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane, Dube, Gaudreau all currently top 9 F and Top 4 D on this team. Those are guys nabbed out of the first round.

There is definitely better drafting right now. Prior to Johnny and Brodie how many hits outside of round 1 were there with the team since Theo Fleury.

They are loading a tonne of prospect bullets into the chamber right now with these later round higher risk picks. Guys with upside but obvious flaws (too small, too fat, cant play defense etc).

I think you have more of an issue with Development, not drafting. I think there is improvement there as well. There are a lot of later round picks that seem to be improving year over year at a higher rate than their peers.

They also identified and drafted Fox, Kulak, Ferland and Broissoit FWIW. All over 200 GP except Broissoit and he’s on a different curve.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

From a drafting POV you have to give them credit for Fox too. Though not from a development POV.

True, and they also got some value from Fox including him in a trade when it was clear he wasn't going to sign. So while we all hate it, from an asset perspective it's better than nothing and the scouts successfully identified the talent.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Knut

Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane, Dube, Gaudreau all currently top 9 F and Top 4 D on this team. Those are guys nabbed out of the first round.

There is definitely better drafting right now. Prior to Johnny and Brodie how many hits outside of round 1 were there with the team since Theo Fleury.

They are loading a tonne of prospect bullets into the chamber right now with these later round higher risk picks. Guys with upside but obvious flaws (too small, too fat, cant play defense etc).

I think you have more of an issue with Development, not drafting. I think there is improvement there as well. There are a lot of later round picks that seem to be improving year over year at a higher rate than their peers.

If you go from Gaudreau draft - you've got Granlund, Ferland, Bourma, Brodie (as you mentioned), Aulie just missed, Prust, Dustin Boyd, Adam Pardy. OBviously more as you go back further - David Moss, Lombardi, McElhinney

[Torture]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

If you go from Gaudreau draft - you've got Granlund, Ferland, Bourma, Brodie (as you mentioned), Aulie just missed, Prust, Dustin Boyd, Adam Pardy. OBviously more as you go back further - David Moss, Lombardi, McElhinney

That's a pretty yikes list. Flames weren't generating a lot of talent back then. Drafting has definitely improved.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Why are you limiting your scope to only the last four drafts?

The post you quoted specifically identified players who were in the system more than a decade ago as the reference point from which the Flames drafting has improved. And he is not wrong: Between 2005–2010 the Flames drafted four players who played +200 NHL games. In the next five years they drafted eight, with another two who will pass this mark in the next year or two.

The Flames drafting and development has been objectively better over the past decade than it was in the previous one.

Those were the drafts with no NHL games so far.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Torture

That's a pretty yikes list. Flames weren't generating a lot of talent back then. Drafting has definitely improved.

All those guys had NHL careers. David Moss got 500 games as a 7th rounder

[PeteMoss]

I will add - they may be better overall, but it isn't a significant change. The years they were terrible drafting also coincided with when the team was good and picked in the mid-twenties each year.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Those were the drafts with no NHL games so far.

So? That was not part of comparison the poster you quoted was making. You are constructing a straw man response by ignoring the point of his argument.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

From a drafting POV you have to give them credit for Fox too. Though not from a development POV.

Fox came to a couple developments camp did he not? I am sure some of the insights and direction from the club helped in some way.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I will add - they may be better overall, but it isn't a significant change. The years they were terrible drafting also coincided with when the team was good and picked in the mid-twenties each year.

I actually have to disagree with you here. I think the Flames have evolved in their drafting and are taking a lot more calculated risks in selecting players, no longer focusing on just guys they think might make a good 4th liner, but instead picking guys with big upside but some challenges to work through. It gives the system a way different look than years gone by. The upside is much higher, but so is the failure rate.

For example, Ryan Francis and Rory Kerins from 2020 are both smallish but highly skilled players. Both have shown some incredible growth that caught the eye of people observing camp. That is what you hope for out of late picks, and these guys are now seriously in the conversation of being legitimate NHL prospects, and not just possible minor league players. The guy that is most interesting to me from this draft is Jeremie Poirier because he is a such a strong offensive talent from the blueline. He's a game changer back there and just has to learn how to play some defense, which he has obviously taken seriously and committed to. In the past, he is a player the Flames would have passed on because of the major hole in his game. But they took a swing and it might payoff. This draft could be a very good one for the Flames in the long run. Same things apply to 2021. Whynot and Beck were surprise picks to me, and they have potential to payoff well. Sure, we won't know exactly what we have until they are a year into their AHL careers, but the fact they made people sit up in their seats and take note at this point speaks well for them and the Flames' drafting. Yes, lots of warts to these guys, but a lot to like as far as skill goes.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Those were the drafts with no NHL games so far.

EDIT: Never mind I misunderstood your point.

[Moneyhands23]

Glad this guy isn't a Saber today so that's a positive thing