The Blue Jays Thread: 2008 Season

[flames_fan_down_under]

Jays WIN Jays WIN! B.J. Ryan with the save and Scott Rolen with a clutch two out home run.

My outlandish prediction: Jays go on to win 12 straight now.

[mac_gurl]

We are heading to Toronto in a couple of weeks to see them take on the Yankees. Hopefully they can pull out a win when we are there as well!

[Bobblehead]

It seems like as soon as BJ blew those saves a couple weeks ago, the Jays will was broken.

And Cito also brought back Gene Tenace? What did the Jays have these guys in storage waiting for just such an occasion to bring them back?


Edit:

Ya know, i haven't been anti-Ricciardi, but when I just wrote what he said about Ernie Whitt, Ricciardi has to go:

Originally Posted by Ricciardi

People have forgotten the fact that I put Ernie in the big leagues. He got a big league job because of me. I'm the one who pushed him to be on this staff. I don't know what his comments were I just know that Ernie was a big league coach because of me

http://www.sportsnet.ca/thewire/2008...jays_coach_at/

[ShaolinFlame]

And with that, I am now going from 'might defend JP' to 'Burn JP at the stake'. I can't believe he is riding such a high horse right now. Ernie is our national team manager, and calling him out like that is nothing but trouble for JP. Add Dunngate on top of that, and I just can't stand the guy.

So,

FIRE JP RICCARDI!!!!!

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Edit:

Ya know, i haven't been anti-Ricciardi, but when I just wrote what he said about Ernie Whitt, Ricciardi has to go:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/thewire/2008...jays_coach_at/

I'm not a JP apologist, but Whitt threw the first punch. He whined about being fired for "no reason". Whitt's comments basically blamed the rest of the Jay's coaches for the team's problems. As far as I'm concerned, Arnsberg was the only Jays coach who seemed to be doing his job.

JP could have taken the high road, but that still doesn't mean Whitt is innocent.

Whitt's comments: http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Bas...52751-sun.html

[Bobblehead]

Whitt was a coach on an imploding team, so none of the coaching staff can be called innocent. But from what I read, he wants to know what he did wrong and why he was taking the fall.

I can see this being the first shot

"The saddest part is that the GM says: 'I'm responsible ... I put the team together.' But he still has his job," Whitt said.

But he is right. And it is a statement of opinion on the job Ricciardi has done; while Ricciardi's rebuttal is nothing but how Ernie owes JP for Whitt's entire career. Does JP get 2 paycheques - one for him and one for his ego?

Interesting that the Sportsnet article is 1/2 of the Toronto star article.

[ShaolinFlame]

Exactly. I am not angry whatsoever that Ernie got fired. I expected all of them to go this season (although wasn't positive for Arny). I just can't believe the ######baggedness of JP.

I think JP in the past two weeks has demonstrated the most unprofessional behavior I have ever seen out of a baseball GM.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Whitt was a coach on an imploding team, so none of the coaching staff can be called innocent. But from what I read, he wants to know what he did wrong and why he was taking the fall.

I can see this being the first shot

But he is right. And it is a statement of opinion on the job Ricciardi has done; while Ricciardi's rebuttal is nothing but how Ernie owes JP for Whitt's entire career. Does JP get 2 paycheques - one for him and one for his ego?

Interesting that the Sportsnet article is 1/2 of the Toronto star article.

He's an MLB coach. He has to suck it up and realize you're going to be fired several times in your career. If the team is underachieving it's a stupid question to ask "what did I do wrong?". Especially for a guy that was demoted to 1st base coach last year. That spot seems reserved for whoever the new manager feels comfortable with.

I don't recall Riccardi ever saying "I'm responsible ... I put the team together." Even if he did, it should be obvious to see why the GM gets a second chance. It takes a hell of a lot more time for a GM to turn things around than for a manager to do the same. JP has had that time, but it's still a stupid statement for Whitt to make.

It's not JP's fault that nearly every hitter on the team and all of our core hitters are performing well below career averages at ages where there should be a mild decline at best (Joe Inglett has the 2nd best OPS on the team). The pitching staff has been great, but they were expected to be and it's not as if every player is overachieving. Burnett is underachieving big-time. Accardo was brutal before his injury. Marcum is overachieving, but Litsch and McGowan are about where you'd expect them to be (McGowan might even be underachieving).

All the GM can do is put the team together and hope for the best. As best I can tell, it's hard to blame JP for every good hitter on the team turning into crap as soon as they throw on the Jays uniform. I think that's a coaching issue which is why the changes were made now. If the team still stinks the rest of the way then I think JP goes.

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by JayP

The pitching staff has been great, but they were expected to be and it's not as if every player is overachieving. Burnett is underachieving big-time. Accardo was brutal before his injury. Marcum is overachieving, but Litsch and McGowan are about where you'd expect them to be (McGowan might even be underachieving).

McGowan is definitely underachieving. He has the best stuff of the pitching staff but has to learn to work with it.

Litsch is overachieving. Even at 7-1, I was wary that he'd start to come back to earth, and he has a bit, losing his last 3 decisions. He's just the opposite of McGowan; he has the worst pitches in the rotation and it's only so long before hitters figure him out. When he gets hit, he gets hit hard, because his lazy balls always hover somewhere around the zone.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by JayP

I don't recall Riccardi ever saying "I'm responsible ... I put the team together."

Go to http://tsn.ca/mlb/ and listen to the "He's Back" audio clip on the right hand side.

Originally Posted by JayP

All the GM can do is put the team together and hope for the best. As best I can tell, it's hard to blame JP for every good hitter on the team turning into crap as soon as they throw on the Jays uniform. I think that's a coaching issue which is why the changes were made now. If the team still stinks the rest of the way then I think JP goes.

IMO: If one or two people are in a slump, then fine. When the WHOLE TEAM has a noticeable power drain (except possibly one or two examples), and a noticeable change in attitude when batting (see link below), then it comes down to coaching. If JP had input in or actually chose who the batting coach was or what philosophy they were using, then it is obvious that JP can definitely share in the blame.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Baseball/M...60621-sun.html

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

McGowan is definitely underachieving. He has the best stuff of the pitching staff but has to learn to work with it.

Litsch is overachieving. Even at 7-1, I was wary that he'd start to come back to earth, and he has a bit, losing his last 3 decisions. He's just the opposite of McGowan; he has the worst pitches in the rotation and it's only so long before hitters figure him out. When he gets hit, he gets hit hard, because his lazy balls always hover somewhere around the zone.

IMO, it's a matter of how the defense behind the pitcher is used. McGowan's stuff is so good that the defense doesn't get used as often, or the hits are so hard that the defense doesn't have much of a chance. Litsch on the other hand has stuff which usually results in ground balls or other softer hits for the defense to field. With as good of a defense as the Jays have, it's a recipe for success - if the bats can score some runs.

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by calculoso

IMO, it's a matter of how the defense behind the pitcher is used. McGowan's stuff is so good that the defense doesn't get used as often, or the hits are so hard that the defense doesn't have much of a chance. Litsch on the other hand has stuff which usually results in ground balls or other softer hits for the defense to field. With as good of a defense as the Jays have, it's a recipe for success - if the bats can score some runs.

I agree, but Litsch's approach only works when hitters haven't figured him out yet. Otherwise, he gets smacked around like in his last start.

I'm actually surprised it's taken this long for the opposition to pounce on those flutterballs.

But yes, you are right. When Litsch fools hitters, they often ground out, which really does favor the Jays with their decent defense.

[moon]

Originally Posted by JayP

It's not JP's fault that nearly every hitter on the team and all of our core hitters are performing well below career averages at ages where there should be a mild decline at best (Joe Inglett has the 2nd best OPS on the team). The pitching staff has been great, but they were expected to be and it's not as if every player is overachieving. Burnett is underachieving big-time. Accardo was brutal before his injury. Marcum is overachieving, but Litsch and McGowan are about where you'd expect them to be (McGowan might even be underachieving).

All the GM can do is put the team together and hope for the best. As best I can tell, it's hard to blame JP for every good hitter on the team turning into crap as soon as they throw on the Jays uniform. I think that's a coaching issue which is why the changes were made now. If the team still stinks the rest of the way then I think JP goes.

I know we aren't going to agree on it but it is the GM's fault if he puts together a team of guys in decline and ready to have that slump.

He didn't exactly put together a murderer's row of hitters and as I have pointed out the drop in production from many if not most of the guys are not a surprise to many outsiders.

To me whether the comments are justified or not the way that Riccardi comes across again is as a jackass. Why not just state the facts that the team was underachieving and every coach has to take the blame?

With his history of moronic comments and job seat on the hot seat I don't get what Ricciardi gets from acting like a jerk. Especially when the firing was most likely justified. Just another example of the guy making himself easy to dislike and easy to fire.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by moon

I know we aren't going to agree on it but it is the GM's fault if he puts together a team of guys in decline and ready to have that slump.

He didn't exactly put together a murderer's row of hitters and as I have pointed out the drop in production from many if not most of the guys are not a surprise to many outsiders.

You keep saying the Jays hitters are "in decline" when all of them are under 34 with the exception of Stairs. Please explain to me how Rios, Wells, Hill, and Overbay are all in decline. Rolen is only 33 too and shouldn't be seeing massive dips off his OPS just yet. Your decline argument might have some weight if there were small dips in OPS, but most of the team is .075+ points below their career average.

Here's a quote from Mike Wilner (radio broadcast) talking about Ernie Whitt's arrogance:

"I’ll close by saying that I’m really not impressed with some of the commenters taking my saying that I’m not allowed to criticize Ernie Whitt to mean that I’m admitting that I’m a corporate shill. Do you really think that if they were going to tell me not to take shots at someone, that Ernie would be the guy? Again - NO ONE tells me what I can and can’t say on the air. I’m not going to tell the whole story, because I’m going to have to try to deal with Ernie at the World Baseball Festival in March, but last month there was a now-famous edition of The JaysTalk when someone actually suggested in all seriousness that Whitt should take over as the General Manager. There were about a dozen calls saying he should take over as the field manager (at least it felt like it), and I was pretty dismissive, but without getting personal or stating any of my reasons other than Ernie’s lack of experience as a manager. Whitt decided to confront me about it the next day, and based on the manner in which he spoke to me and the language that he used, I decided it wasn’t worth the headache to discuss him on the air anymore. I believe he again revealed himself in today’s Toronto Sun, with his quote that he believes he’s the best manager the Blue Jays have never hired. This is a guy who has never had a full-time gig managing professionals, at any level other than the odd week-long tournament."

[Bobblehead]

Ricciardi became GM in Nov, 2001. This the the 4th manager JP has hired. The whole team is JP's and has been for a number of years.

The last few weeks, with this whole Whitt issue, which immediately came after the Adam Dunn issue, has just revealed to me a lack of accountability which seems to have pervaded the whole Blue Jay culture. They are ALWAYS a victim on circumstance; if this player hadn't been hurt they would have been fine, or this player hadn't been a clubhouse cancer, or if these guys had hit for their average, if the manager had played small ball in stead of waiting for the big hit - lots of excuses, very little accountability. And it seems that it is all a reflection of how Ricciardi handles himself.

[ShaolinFlame]

DJF is suggesting a standing O' for Mr Dunn

[JayP]

Originally Posted by ShaolinFlame

DJF is suggesting a standing O' for Mr Dunn

Yes, let's have a standing O for a guy who took several potshots at Canada after JP's comments. Both guys look like idiots.

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by ShaolinFlame

DJF is suggesting a standing O' for Mr Dunn

Knowing the Jays faithful, he'll get a hearty round of . . . . boos.

[ShaolinFlame]

Pretty sad that I am excited to see a Jays game based solely on drama. I think after I might watch a little of 'The Hills', some Next, and maybe an episode of Ellen or two. Then I can gossip on my cellphone for a few hours, take off my makeup and retire to my doll collection.

I cannot remember a time where Blue Jays baseball has seemed so unattractive to me.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by JayP

Yes, let's have a standing O for a guy who took several potshots at Canada after JP's comments. Both guys look like idiots.

What did Dunn say? If he bashed Canada....thats pretty stupid on his part. J.P. Ricciardi is who he should be spewing venom at, and Ricciardi's only connection to Canada is that he's GM of the only MLB team in Canada. Bash JP all he likes, maybe even the organization....but going further than that...not too swift.