2015-2016 Blue Jays Off-Season Thread

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

AA was ridiculous. He needs a 200 million payroll to win.

In the end even Rogers couldn't stand him and hired Shapiro on July 1st to politely show AA out the door in October or work under Shipiro's conditions. Sure the Jays made a nice run after July 31 but a GM can't run an organization like that.

That's a bit of hyperbole... but yes AA's reputation outways his actual performance. The entire length of his tenure basically amounts to a .500 record.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Parallex

That's a bit of hyperbole... but yes AA's reputation outways his actual performance. The entire length of his tenure basically amounts to a .500 record.

Not to mention he had to gut the top of his prospect pool just to get into the playoffs and left the team with some pretty significant holes in the short term and long term. I believe they still have a good farm system and that AA was a good GM but I think Jays fans have put him on too high a pedastal. He was good, but not great.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by cross16

Not to mention he had to gut the top of his prospect pool just to get into the playoffs and left the team with some pretty significant holes in the short term and long term. I believe they still have a good farm system and that AA was a good GM but I think Jays fans have put him on too high a pedastal. He was good, but not great.

Yeah, that's my impression... AA wasn't the wunderkind that folk like to make him out as nor was he bad. He was an average to good GM.

I'm not to worried about the farm system... so long as the jays don't cut scouting staff that'll work it's way back up in no time. Losing Cruz to the Dodgers hurts more then losing AA in that respect (although Shapiro and Co. have a good rep on the international market so hopefully that mitigates) and we can't really invest in Latin America until the 2017 market anyways.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Yeah, that's my impression... AA wasn't the wunderkind that folk like to make him out as nor was he bad. He was an average to good GM.

I'm not to worried about the farm system... so long as the jays don't cut scouting staff that'll work it's way back up in no time. Losing Cruz to the Dodgers hurts more then losing AA in that respect (although Shapiro and Co. have a good rep on the international market so hopefully that mitigates) and we can't really invest in Latin America until the 2017 market anyways.

I'm not worried long term either. They've got some really intriguing guys, mainly Connor Green and Anthony Alfrod, who I think could be top prospects by the end of the year. Just sucks they lost guys like Hoffman/Norris/Boyd who could have factored into the rotation in the next season or two and probably would have negated the need to get Happ/Chavez.

"Price" to pay i gues.. Pun intented.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by cross16

Not to mention he had to gut the top of his prospect pool just to get into the playoffs and left the team with some pretty significant holes in the short term and long term. I believe they still have a good farm system and that AA was a good GM but I think Jays fans have put him on too high a pedastal. He was good, but not great.

Gut the top of the prospect pool that he (and his team) assembled? He gave himself the tools to be able to do that. It sure wasn't there from the Riccardi/Ash days. He had to build it up to get to the point where he actually had something to gut.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by cross16

Just sucks they lost guys like Hoffman/Norris/Boyd who could have factored into the rotation in the next season or two

Agree on Norris, undecided on Boyd, and Hoffman was just a new draft pick - who knows who will be picked in this next draft (albeit now with a poor draft position) to come in the future.

[REDVAN]

If the Jays suck this year, I have no doubt the cupboards will be EASILY re-stocked when we ship out some bats to playoff teams... don't over-react about the "bare" cupboards, that is how baseball works.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Agree on Norris, undecided on Boyd, and Hoffman was just a new draft pick - who knows who will be picked in this next draft (albeit now with a poor draft position) to come in the future.

Hoffman was the crown jewel of the pitching prospect. He's another Noah Syndergaard. When the reports on Tulo coming to Toronto first started, it was being reported Hoffman wasn't part of the deal. I was jumping for joy, only to have that shattered about an hour later. Still a decent deal for the Jays though and Tulo could easily be shipped out for another prospect as highly regarded as Hoffman (assuming he has a bounce back year).

[cross16]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Gut the top of the prospect pool that he (and his team) assembled? He gave himself the tools to be able to do that. It sure wasn't there from the Riccardi/Ash days. He had to build it up to get to the point where he actually had something to gut.

Absolutely and I woudn't rob AA of credit for that. My point was I don't believe a GM is "great" just becuase he managed to get his team into the playoffs 1 year of the 6 he was the GM. Especially when you consdier what he had to do just to get them there 1 time, that is my point. I believe great GMs build a contender year in and year out.

I wouldn't even argue the cupboards are bare I still like a lot of the Jays prosepct. As I said I dont' think he gutted the prospect poor he guted the top of it, the ones that were potentially close to helping the team that's all.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by cross16

Absolutely and I woudn't rob AA of credit for that. My point was I don't believe a GM is "great" just becuase he managed to get his team into the playoffs 1 year of the 6 he was the GM. Especially when you consdier what he had to do just to get them there 1 time, that is my point. I believe great GMs build a contender year in and year out.

I wouldn't even argue the cupboards are bare I still like a lot of the Jays prosepct. As I said I dont' think he gutted the prospect poor he guted the top of it, the ones that were potentially close to helping the team that's all.

Ask yourself why AA had to raid the cupboards to get the team into the playoffs. He can't acquire the 2-3 players he needed through free agency because of budget restraints, he saw the window was fading for the team he built, and talking with Rogers about the situation is a moot point (see the broken promises from 2014). He went out there and got a bunch of rental players, and for the first time in 22 years broke the Jays out of their mediocre holding pattern. I 100% believe AA believed if that he showed Rogers what the Toronto market was capable of while fielding championship caliber team, he'd be given a lot more financial leeway to build the team going forward. he couldn't have been more wrong, and as soon as he realized that in the off season, he took his ball and went home.

I don't think AA was a great GM and I also don't think he was a poor GM either. I think he should have accomplished more even with the financial restrictions he had, but I will forever be grateful for what he did in 2015. With two trades, he shifted the expectations of the casual Blue Jay fan. If the Jays suck this year, Rogers is going to pay for it. Just fielding a team isn't going to be enough for them anymore. The expectations are higher than ever, and if they fall flat on their face this year due to refusing to spend any money, I personally believe there is going to be some serious fall back on the Rogers brand.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by cross16

Absolutely and I woudn't rob AA of credit for that. My point was I don't believe a GM is "great" just becuase he managed to get his team into the playoffs 1 year of the 6 he was the GM. Especially when you consdier what he had to do just to get them there 1 time, that is my point. I believe great GMs build a contender year in and year out.

I wouldn't even argue the cupboards are bare I still like a lot of the Jays prosepct. As I said I dont' think he gutted the prospect poor he guted the top of it, the ones that were potentially close to helping the team that's all.

Also, can you actually name me a great GM in MLB that gets his team in the playoffs year over year that faces the financial restraints that a Blue Jays GM does? I can only name one. John Mozeliak of the St. Louis Cardinals, and his team was is in the NL Central which up until recently was a terrible division composed of mostly small market teams and the lowly Cubs. Now that the Cubs and Pittsburgh are ramping up their game (and subsequent payrolls), we'll see if the Cardinalds dominance continues. I suspect it won't though.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Also, can you actually name me a great GM in MLB that gets his team in the playoffs year over year that faces the financial restraints that a Blue Jays GM does?

Oh good grief...

Of the other 9 playoff Teams this past season 6 of them had lower payrolls then the Jays had.

The year before that 5 of them had a lower payroll then the Jays had.

The year before that 7 of them had a lower payroll then the Jays had.

The Jays payroll is fine. I know you want to push the narrative that Rogers is somehow a miserly group but the Jays have been given a decent amount of coin for some time now.

And if you want to add another name I'll add one... Billy Beane. Oakland frequently makes the playoffs dispite perpetually having a bottom 5 payroll (as opposed to the top 10 payroll the Jays have had recently). I'd toss Andrew Friedman in there as well from his pre-Dodger days with Tampa.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

if they fall flat on their face this year due to refusing to spend any money

Again, payroll is projected to be $10,000,000.00 higher then opening day last year even if they do nothing more then what they've done already.

[Hockey Fan #751]

Backup catcher problem solved!

http://www.tsn.ca/blue-jays-sign-c-t...-deal-1.404270

[Roof-Daddy]

Good lord.

Well, the bullpen and back up catcher spots are currently the biggest weaknesses on our roster.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Oh good grief...

Of the other 9 playoff Teams this past season 6 of them had lower payrolls then the Jays had.

The year before that 5 of them had a lower payroll then the Jays had.

The year before that 7 of them had a lower payroll then the Jays had.

The Jays payroll is fine. I know you want to push the narrative that Rogers is somehow a miserly group but the Jays have been given a decent amount of coin for some time now.

And if you want to add another name I'll add one... Billy Beane. Oakland frequently makes the playoffs dispite perpetually having a bottom 5 payroll (as opposed to the top 10 payroll the Jays have had recently). I'd toss Andrew Friedman in there as well from his pre-Dodger days with Tampa.



Again, payroll is projected to be $10,000,000.00 higher then opening day last year even if they do nothing more then what they've done already.

Which AL team that has CONSISTENTLY made it to the playoffs has done so with a lower payroll the Jays? The original poster said making the playoffs 1 out of 6 years wasn't that much of a feat and his mind a good gm would have a consistently good team that made the playoffs. Here are the teams in the playoffs (excluding wildcard games) since 2005.

2005:

- Chicago
- Boston
- LA Angels
- New York Yankees

2006:
- Detroit
- New York Yankees
- Oakland
- Minnesota

2007:

- Boston Red Sox
- LA Angels
- New Yankees
- Tampa Bay

2008:

- Boston
- LA Angels
- Tampa
- Chicago

2009:

- New York Yankees
- Minnesota Twins
- LA Angels
- Boston Red Sox

2010:

- Texas
- Tampa
- New York Yankees
- Minnesota Twins

2011:

- Texas
- Tampa
- New York Yankees
- Minnesota Twins

2012:

-Detroit
- Oakland
- New York
- Baltimore

2013:
- Boston
- Detroit
- Oakland
- Tampa

2014:
- Baltimore
- Detroit
- Kansas
- LA Angels

2015:
- Toronto
- Texas
- Kansas
- Houston

So the teams that consistently make the playoffs the most are Boston, New York, LA, and Tampa. All teams, outside of Tampa, dwarf Toronto's payroll year in and year out. Tampa falls completely off the map though when their stable of young pictures came up for contract renewals. This goes to further prove my point, that the Jays either need to spend money to win, or they need to build from within so they can go on a run like Tampa or Oakland. Right now they are doing either. A complete holding pattern of mediocrity.

It actually surprised me how much Minnesota made the playoffs. I dug a little deeper and their payroll was quite high in 2010-2012, which I never would have though. but I guess they had some pretty high paid guys like Mauer.

Oakland has made the playoffs 3 times, but not really done any damage once they got in with the big boys. Detroit and Chicago have both one world series but with huge payrolls at that time. Detroit has been in the playoffs 4 times. Almost up there with the Yankees, Angels, and Red Sox, but their payroll was top 4 or 5 in the league.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Hockey Fan #751

Backup catcher problem solved!

http://www.tsn.ca/blue-jays-sign-c-t...-deal-1.404270

Brutal.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Hockey Fan #751

Backup catcher problem solved!

http://www.tsn.ca/blue-jays-sign-c-t...-deal-1.404270

That's fine.

Catching Dickey had a pretty bad effect on Martin (and a hangover effect the following game). Thole's cheap and effective in his niche role. Really do wish that the Jays would have sunk Smoak's money on Jaso and used him as a combo DH/1B/C/PH so that we could have a competant bat to sub in on the back-up catcher days (Double-Headers/Night-Day/Maintainance) asides from the Dickey starts.

Man... Thole better send Dickey "thank you" notes. The guys entire career basically comes down to being able to complement something that only one player in MLB does.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

That's fine.

Catching Dickey had a pretty bad effect on Martin (and a hangover effect the following game). Thole's cheap and effective in his niche role. Really do wish that the Jays would have sunk Smoak's money on Jaso and used him as a combo DH/1B/C/PH so that we could have a competant bat to sub in on the back-up catcher days (Double-Headers/Night-Day/Maintainance) asides from the Dickey starts.

Man... Thole better send Dickey "thank you" notes. The guys entire career basically comes down to being able to complement something that only one player in MLB does.

I'd say. Every major league dollar this guy has made is thanks to Dickey.

I don't think it's fine, unless he will be the every day backup, which I suspect is the plan. Having to carry 3 catchers last year killed the Jays bench.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I'd say. Every major league dollar this guy has made is thanks to Dickey.

I don't think it's fine, unless he will be the every day backup, which I suspect is the plan. Having to carry 3 catchers last year killed the Jays bench.

Not every dollar but like 90% of them. Thole was on the Mets Roster before Dickey even signed with them.

He'll probably be the every day back-up. Only reason the Jays had three last year was because AA couldn't find a trade partner for Navarro.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Ask yourself why AA had to raid the cupboards to get the team into the playoffs. He can't acquire the 2-3 players he needed through free agency because of budget restraints, he saw the window was fading for the team he built, and talking with Rogers about the situation is a moot point (see the broken promises from 2014). He went out there and got a bunch of rental players, and for the first time in 22 years broke the Jays out of their mediocre holding pattern. I 100% believe AA believed if that he showed Rogers what the Toronto market was capable of while fielding championship caliber team, he'd be given a lot more financial leeway to build the team going forward. he couldn't have been more wrong, and as soon as he realized that in the off season, he took his ball and went home.

I don't think AA was a great GM and I also don't think he was a poor GM either. I think he should have accomplished more even with the financial restrictions he had, but I will forever be grateful for what he did in 2015. With two trades, he shifted the expectations of the casual Blue Jay fan. If the Jays suck this year, Rogers is going to pay for it. Just fielding a team isn't going to be enough for them anymore. The expectations are higher than ever, and if they fall flat on their face this year due to refusing to spend any money, I personally believe there is going to be some serious fall back on the Rogers brand.

For the last 3 seasons, and about to be 4, the Jays have had a top 10 MLB payroll and spent over 100 million. Not exactly hard budget constraints he's been given. I also think a real reason behind the trades was he had to correct the mistakes of acquiring Reyes and Dickey and having so much bloated money on his roster. I do give him a lot of creidt though for being brave enough to admit he made a msitake and fixing it. There were things I did admire about AA and at the end of the day I do wish he would have stayed, i'm jut not that broken up about him leaving and personally I like everything i've herad from Shapiro so far.

I understand that year in and year out making the playoffs is tough in MLB but at least contend for them. The Jays under AA weren't even close to making the playoffs in any other year either despite an increased payroll.