[Trade] Flames acquire Shane O'Brien and David Jones for Tanguay and Sarich

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by browna

Hate to lose Sarich though. Old school warrior who fought through injuries the past few years. SOB is the same mold but Sarich a better overall player and leader, by far Imo.

Sarich *was* a better overall player. I'm not sure he's NHL calibre anymore. How does that saying go? 'The spirit is willing, but the legs are shot.' Something like that.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Diemenz

So fans on message boards know that these guys are "Mr. Vegas" but the entire flames organization missed that memo and flew into this trade blind?

Do you honestly........and I'm being serious here, feel that you have more inside knowledge of these players and know more about their abilities then an entire scouting staff?

Hmm... you really expect anyone to answer yes to that silly question? Of course not. Let me break it down for you step by step:

1) True or false: Did Giguere not call out that room this past season?
2) Who went to Vegas? Apparently, either one (or both) of these guys were the "vegas guys" - whatever that means to the locker room.
3) I'm speculating that this COULD be something to consider, and neither one of these guys are guys that have been beneficial to a rebuild in Colorado, have they? 4) They at the very least weren't part of the solution in that room as vets, or Giguere probably wouldn't have felt the need to air the laundry to the media.
5) True? False? Just passing what I read, as per the fanboards of Avs, who should at least have more info than the fanboard here on their players, no?.

Like I said - this isn't a 'terrible' trade. O'Brien and Sarich played exactly the same number of games. What's the difference? Look at their defence there. Calgary's isn't great, but the Avs' are downright atrocious. Your comment about Sarich barely playing for the Flames this year means what now?

Serious question - and I am being very serious here (bolded for the extra seriousness) - are we not allowed to critique moves and speculate on hockey moves here, or is that only allowed if you are a pro scout?

[sureLoss]

Memory was a little fuzzy but weren't White and Stajan speculated/rumored to be the guys Burke called out for being more interested in organizing helicopter trips then preparing for games around the time of the Phaneuf trade?

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Diemenz

So fans on message boards know that these guys are "Mr. Vegas" but the entire flames organization missed that memo and flew into this trade blind?

Do you honestly........and I'm being serious here, feel that you have more inside knowledge of these players and know more about their abilities then an entire scouting staff?

The Oilers didn't know that Colton Teubert was a frequent healthy scratch when they picked him up... the Flames didn't know Cervenka couldn't play center when they signed him. It does happen.

[Igottago]

Good trade...for Colorado. O Brien is bloody terrible, and an idiot as well. Not the type of player that will take the Flames anywhere. I dont even think he's that tough. Jones could be okay but considering we are losing arguably our best offensive player it's a downgrade. Great for Colorado, they get some much needed veteran leadership and a quality winger in Tanguay.

[LGA]

Alright, I'm going to post my observations on Jones and SOB, for Jones it will be from the last 5-6 seasons, and from SOB it will be from his last year.

When Jones first came into the league he was one of my favourite players. He was surprisingly fast for a big guy, he had decent hands a good shot and a willingness to drive the net that was awesome. He was a real PK threat due to his combination of speed and size. However, at this point in his career he was also fantastically injury prone. As the years progressed, he lost some of that speed and his hands went from "shockingly good on occasion" to "why the hell can't you hold onto the puck?", however he managed to find his niche as a complimentary scorer. The injuries seemed to make him a bit gun shy, he didn't drive the net with nearly as much aggression and it severely limited his speed. His big production year came when he was on a line with Stastny and Stewart, now this was at a time when Stastny and Stewart were absolutely tearing things up, Jones really benefited from having Stewart driving the net and him being able to clean up the garbage. He was also a beneficiary of Stastny basically force feeding him goals. The most frustrating thing about Jones is that he is extremely streaky. When he is on a hot streak goals come easy, when he is on a cold streak you're cursing his name. Over the last few seasons he has also developed a strange habit (leading to many Avs fans joking that he must be boozing during the game) of falling all over the place. This combined with his mediocre hands led to many plays simply dying on his stick.

Now it's not all bad with Jones. He'll still surprise you every now and again with a big hit or a snipe, but it's not something that you should get used to. Hopefully, as a former fan of his game, he'll find that drive and determination that I saw during his first few years. He is at his best when he plays with reckless abandon, unfortunately he also seems to get injured whenever he plays this style of game.

SOB was a pleasant surprise at the start of last year. He wasn't great in any area of his game, but he was physical, decently mobile and was playing quite well. Unfortunately, when Sacco started feeding him more minutes his game began to fall apart. He looked good early because he kept his game simple, he was chipping the puck forward, moving it quick and playing a more conservative game. However, as the season went on he started to carry the puck more, and consequently lost the puck a lot more (when he went on these little expeditions we jokingly called him Shane Orr'Brien). I think that, with a good coach, SOB can make a good #6 defender. He is one of those guys that really needs a disciplinary breathing down his neck and keeping him under control otherwise he starts to become a detriment to the team. He seems to have a bit of a reputation throughout the league, so expect him to take quite a few penalties as well.

So there you have, my evaluations and observations of the two players you guys just acquired. You can ignore this, assume I'm an idiot, and that's perfectly fine. I personally really liked it as an Avs fan simply because it frees up the roster a bit. Sarich and SOB are pretty even IMO, I don't want either of them playing a major role on my team, and hopefully Sarich will be in the pressbox more often than he is on the ice. Jones seemed to only really be effective with Stastny, and I felt that he was dragging down Stastny's production. He isn't that great defensively, and his propensity to kill plays didn't allow Stastny to use his strongest asset (playmaking and cycling). Tanguay, hopefully reinvigorated, should make a good playmaking winger for Nathan MacKinnon (who they have stated they'll pick if they keep the #1).

I wish both Jones and SOB the best of luck, but I'm also very happy about this trade as an Avs fan.

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

The Oilers didn't know that Colton Teubert was a frequent healthy scratch when they picked him up... the Flames didn't know Cervenka couldn't play center when they signed him. It does happen.

If you're going to start discussing the things the Oilers were unaware of or didn't know about you're probably going to be typing all night.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Edmonton stayed at the bottom for so long because they kept bringing in good "attitude" players rather then guys who were good at hockey.

umm... who?

In 09-10, they sent out a bunch of players.

Cole for Pitkanen
Vishnovsky for Whitney

Neither was a step up in terms of attitude (nor a step down) and used a lot of spots for kids.

In 10-11 they moved out a few more vets for kids like Hall and Eberle. For veteran players. They only brought in Foster and Vandermeer. Vandermeer is one of the few that they brought in with the right attitude. I don't know if it's coincidental or not, but the year after Smid (the only young D on the team) stepped up his overall game.

This is the time period where they could've used good leadership. The young players instead had to look up to guys like Hemsky, Penner, Horcoff, O'Sullivan, Gilbert. None of those guys are ideal teacher types and have more in common with guys like Tanguay attitude wise.

Their whole team is still very inconsistent, just like the leaders they had on their team once they started to rebuild.

Talent isn't everything. Teams that have the right work ethic ingrained in their team tend to perform better than teams that do not. Look at Phoenix last year getting to the conference finals. Their team had about the same amount of talent that Calgary currently has, but their work ethic and attitude is extremely good. Each of their players plays their role and gives 100%. (Not saying we should imitate their style of play)

[GettinIggyWithIt]

I wouldn't call Tanguay our best offensive player. Stempniak, Glencross and Cammalleri are all better offensively than he was for us this year. Expecting him to be one of our best players is part of why we ended up where we did last year. IMO:

Jones > Tanguay
Sarich > O'Brien

Tanguay is 33 and probably has a couple of years left. He wasn't going to be a top player for us this season. We needed size up front and Jones is a better fit in our forward group than Tangs. I like Sarich and I prefer him over SOB but I don't mind the swap given O'Brien is 4 years younger and plays a similar physical game. If he gets utilized in the same way as Sarich, this is a neutral trade for us.

[flames_fan13]

Not sure I see a positive of adding O'brien to the team. For a team that's supposed to be rebuilding I would rather have kept Sarich over O'brien. In my opinion Sarich played a big role in developing Giordano and Brodie's games. Sarich is a good mentor for the young defense we will be using I wouldn't mind him mentoring Breen. With O'Brien we will be getting a player who is known to take undisciplined penalties at the wrong time. Not someone I'd want our young defenseman to learn from. With the amount of penalties O'brien will take and our defense corps Macdonald or Ramo will get a lot of rubber to show off their skills.

The Tanguay for Jones is yet to be determined for me. Think Jones' size could fill a huge need but he's got to be able to use it. Tanguay's game is dependent on his linemate being a shooter and right now I don't see anyone but Cammalleri filling that role and with him being rumored to be moved Tanguay will be useless.

[FAN]

A trade involving unwanted players. Edge goes to Avs as I think they will get more from Tanguay and Sarich next year as the Flames will get from Jones and SOB. Hopefully Feaster's man crush on SOB doesnt translate into a long term extension for SOB

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

...We are not just a worse team today, we are in worse shape down the road as well...

I am not thrilled with this trade, but nor is it in any way upsetting. As mentioned a number of times now, this was an exceptionally inconsequential deal, considering the current state of the Flames.

So I understand why people are cautiously, reasonably critical, but what I don't get are the massive over-reactions. It is patently ridiculous to suggest that this deal in any way, shape, or form has jeopardised the team's future. It is fairly negligible at worst.

[The Swedish Flame]

To be completely honest, this is a pretty boring trade. I'm slightly surprised you guys managed to rack up 34 pages about it.

I'm just really indifferent to this trade and hope it works out for the better.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by The Swedish Flame

To be completely honest, this is a pretty boring trade. I'm slightly surprised you guys managed to rack up 34 pages about it.

Not much else to talk about.

I have to say, after reading this thread, I've become quite worried that Jones and O'Brien could end up being really bad pickups.

Exactly the kind of players we should try to avoid like the plague.

Bringing in two veterans who like to party and have serious warning signs for not being very motivated could wreck real havoc in the dressing room atmosphere. Stuff like that could pretty much destroy the whole rebuild. Obviously not by themselves, but we have to consider a relatively young dressing room that's going to be a tough place mentally next year (with all the losing) and propably lacking in leadership, especially if we ship Cammalleri out.

While Tanguay was a sulker, he clearly didn't bring the kids around him down, and Sarich was always a professional with obviously a lot of good habits to teach.

So while the on-ice qualities are pretty much a wash, the character warning signs seem like too much of a risk to me.

Starting to dislike this trade. But time will tell.

[really?]

Originally Posted by The Swedish Flame

To be completely honest, this is a pretty boring trade. I'm slightly surprised you guys managed to rack up 34 pages about it.

I'm just really indifferent to this trade and hope it works out for the better.

Ditto.

Any trade that excises A. Tanguay can't be all that bad. A skilled guy who has turned veteran entitlement into an art form.

The return is somewhat irrelevant as this trade was about trying to improve through subtraction, though I think Cory Sarich is of a different caliber than the other three players in the trade. Good luck to Cory.

[Haplo]

I don't like the trade very much. I was hoping Tanguay and Cammalleri could rack up some good numbers together next season, so both players could give the Flames a nice return at the trade deadline. Instead we get rid of our best playmaker for another third liner. If Cammy is not traded too, his numbers and trade value will drop without Tanguay. If so, this is pretty bad asset management in my book.

I was under the impression that trading away our top players now, would only be done to make us competitive a few years from now. This trade doesn't do that. Jones is easily replaceable. I guess the trade helps us secure a lottery draft pick next season though. Some fans may be happy with that - I'm not.

[The Swedish Flame]

Originally Posted by Itse

Not much else to talk about.

Could always talk about Jokerit!

That might be really off-topic though...

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by LGA

Alright, I'm going to post my observations on Jones and SOB, for Jones it will be from the last 5-6 seasons, and from SOB it will be from his last year.

When Jones first came into the league he was one of my favourite players. He was surprisingly fast for a big guy, he had decent hands a good shot and a willingness to drive the net that was awesome. He was a real PK threat due to his combination of speed and size. However, at this point in his career he was also fantastically injury prone. As the years progressed, he lost some of that speed and his hands went from "shockingly good on occasion" to "why the hell can't you hold onto the puck?", however he managed to find his niche as a complimentary scorer. The injuries seemed to make him a bit gun shy, he didn't drive the net with nearly as much aggression and it severely limited his speed. His big production year came when he was on a line with Stastny and Stewart, now this was at a time when Stastny and Stewart were absolutely tearing things up, Jones really benefited from having Stewart driving the net and him being able to clean up the garbage. He was also a beneficiary of Stastny basically force feeding him goals. The most frustrating thing about Jones is that he is extremely streaky. When he is on a hot streak goals come easy, when he is on a cold streak you're cursing his name. Over the last few seasons he has also developed a strange habit (leading to many Avs fans joking that he must be boozing during the game) of falling all over the place. This combined with his mediocre hands led to many plays simply dying on his stick.

Now it's not all bad with Jones. He'll still surprise you every now and again with a big hit or a snipe, but it's not something that you should get used to. Hopefully, as a former fan of his game, he'll find that drive and determination that I saw during his first few years. He is at his best when he plays with reckless abandon, unfortunately he also seems to get injured whenever he plays this style of game.

SOB was a pleasant surprise at the start of last year. He wasn't great in any area of his game, but he was physical, decently mobile and was playing quite well. Unfortunately, when Sacco started feeding him more minutes his game began to fall apart. He looked good early because he kept his game simple, he was chipping the puck forward, moving it quick and playing a more conservative game. However, as the season went on he started to carry the puck more, and consequently lost the puck a lot more (when he went on these little expeditions we jokingly called him Shane Orr'Brien). I think that, with a good coach, SOB can make a good #6 defender. He is one of those guys that really needs a disciplinary breathing down his neck and keeping him under control otherwise he starts to become a detriment to the team. He seems to have a bit of a reputation throughout the league, so expect him to take quite a few penalties as well.

So there you have, my evaluations and observations of the two players you guys just acquired. You can ignore this, assume I'm an idiot, and that's perfectly fine. I personally really liked it as an Avs fan simply because it frees up the roster a bit. Sarich and SOB are pretty even IMO, I don't want either of them playing a major role on my team, and hopefully Sarich will be in the pressbox more often than he is on the ice. Jones seemed to only really be effective with Stastny, and I felt that he was dragging down Stastny's production. He isn't that great defensively, and his propensity to kill plays didn't allow Stastny to use his strongest asset (playmaking and cycling). Tanguay, hopefully reinvigorated, should make a good playmaking winger for Nathan MacKinnon (who they have stated they'll pick if they keep the #1).

I wish both Jones and SOB the best of luck, but I'm also very happy about this trade as an Avs fan.

Jones sounds a lot like Rene Bourque. Hopefully as Jones gets healthy he'll regain his form. I didn't expect to get much for Tanguay anyways.

[Poe969]

This should give us a leg up for next years top draft pick. Now we only need to get rid of Cammy and its almost a lock!

[FlameZilla]

I'm not overly enthusiastic, but I think this does address one need: we've swapped a small, skilled LW (of which we had far too many) for a RW. Jones is an ideal 3rd line RW & I'm sure he could produce on a secondary scoring line.

Put him on a line with Backs and Baertschi & suddenly I think our offence improves significantly. A big, hard-forechecking RW shoud be able to make more space for our young creative guys so they can fully express themselves.

SOB seems like a character and racks up PIMs. Younger grade on Sarich.

I think our team has gotten marginally better. No homerun by any means, but a slight improvement is better than a lateral step.