First nations will blockade roads as part of 'Idle No More' protest

[icecube]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

So as a white immigrant, from a poor background, what is my ability to comment?


You keep skirting the requests to dicuss the issues.

What is Idle No More's mission statement? What is the movenment about?

Im not skirting any requests to explain what 'Idle no more' is about. It's exhausting trying to reply to every post. It's my one day off in forever and I'd like to spend a little time with my daughter rather than have an internet message board debate.

I thought we all knew already that "Idle no more" is a grassroots movement that began by protesting the omnibus bill C- 45, particularly regarding the parts that affect navigable waterways. The government has a fiduciary responsibility to negotiate with First Nations when legislation affects them. The Harper government in particular has continually neglected to do this and finally people had enough.

The movement is all over the place now because different bands across the country have started voicing their own concerns relating to their people.

I still wonder why the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples (RCAP) findings have been ignored after a five year commision began in 91 and the report came out in 96. First Nations people are upset because they're rarely part of any negotiating process when issues come up that affect them.

There are so many things wrong in this country and people are seriously wondering "why all the protesting?". I don't see why it all has to be wrapped up in a pretty little bow and one issue gets protested.

I come from a city where police were murdering First Nations people by driving them out to the middle of nowhere in the dead of winter. This went on for a couple decades until they were caught. I live in a province where three men raped a 12 year old First Nations girl and got away with no more than a slap on the wrist. I could go on and on why this movement is happening right now. I think people are being deliberately obtuse if they can't see it.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by icecube

No, not necessarily. It does if you paint every chief with the same corrupt brush. There are many bands with balanced books and honest leadership. FN are not the only people out there who have corruption in their midst either.

Accountability is extremely important and must be addressed, nobody is arguing that. That shouldn't take away focus from other issues that need attention now.

You are utterly wrong on this one, what the native community needs to grasp is accountability, just basic competance in governance needs to be addressed as none of the other issues can be fixed until there is a competant well qualified accountable governance structure in place.

I will give you an example from my life, I am a foster parent, I got a referal for a young (13) native lad just before christmas, he arrived to meet me with his social worker, nice kid, social worker is his aunt, she was in no way qualified to be doing the job, had no clue what so ever, in fact she was so bad I assumed she was the mum at first, it took 10 minutes or so for her to let me know she was the social worker then another 10 before she let me know she was also the kids aunt.
This would be a complete conflict of interest in 'white canada', she is in no way able to make unbiased judgements about the kid or his mum, her sister, and ultimatly she is responsible for laying charges against her sister for neglect or abuse.
Why is aunt the social worker?, the band will not hire outside even if they have no one qualified to do the job, beyond that they are complacent as it is too easy to just blame history, whitey if you will, for why the current generation is still being abused and neglected, only by their own people now.

Until their is a change in how natives run themselves, power removed from hopelessly small underqualified bands that are dominated by a family or two, hiring and programs set at provincial levels with equivalent qualifications and outcomes expected to white canadian standerds then there is no point in trying to help. Better we save the money and put it where it might do some good.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by valo403

How is that first statement racist? I expect you won't answer, you've already ducked this question and I assume it's because your aim is nothing more than agitation. You come in here with ridiculous accusations, you promise a response (that never comes), you fail to respond to pointed questions and critiques, and you generally demonstrate a lack of desire to debate issues.

I wouldn't be so bothered by this if you didn't decide to tar people with the "racist" brush from the start, but when you play that card you're asking to get raked over the coals if you don't back it up. So get to backing it up.

Its racist because it perpetuates the myth that First Nations people are in the position they're in because its their own fault for being lazy and not working harder. It perpetuates the myth that institutional racism is a thing of the past and that we now live in a meritocracy where people only have themselves to blame for their socio-economic situation. Arguments like that ignore the historic policies that are the reason Canada's aboriginal people are in the boat they're in now.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

You are utterly wrong on this one, what the native community needs to grasp is accountability, just basic competance in governance needs to be addressed as none of the other issues can be fixed until there is a competant well qualified accountable governance structure in place.

I will give you an example from my life, I am a foster parent, I got a referal for a young (13) native lad just before christmas, he arrived to meet me with his social worker, nice kid, social worker is his aunt, she was in no way qualified to be doing the job, had no clue what so ever, in fact she was so bad I assumed she was the mum at first, it took 10 minutes or so for her to let me know she was the social worker then another 10 before she let me know she was also the kids aunt.
This would be a complete conflict of interest in 'white canada', she is in no way able to make unbiased judgements about the kid or his mum, her sister, and ultimatly she is responsible for laying charges against her sister for neglect or abuse.
Why is aunt the social worker?, the band will not hire outside even if they have no one qualified to do the job, beyond that they are complacent as it is too easy to just blame history, whitey if you will, for why the current generation is still being abused and neglected, only by their own people now.

Until their is a change in how natives run themselves, power removed from hopelessly small underqualified bands that are dominated by a family or two, hiring and programs set at provincial levels with equivalent qualifications and outcomes expected to white canadian standerds then there is no point in trying to help. Better we save the money and put it where it might do some good.

If you think inept social workers is limited to Native services, you would be severely mistaken. I know more than one family has jumped from Child Services to Native Services for that exact reason.

Just as long as you don't mind waiting a year for your payments to come in.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by icecube

Its racist because it perpetuates the myth that First Nations people are in the position they're in because its their own fault for being lazy and not working harder. It perpetuates the myth that institutional racism is a thing of the past and that we now live in a meritocracy where people only have themselves to blame for their socio-economic situation. Arguments like that ignore the historic policies that are the reason Canada's aboriginal people are in the boat they're in now.

While this may sound like it's true, these were the same arguments used during the "occupy" movement, and there was no race issue brought up then. Your point isn't completely valid or invalid.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by icecube

Its racist because it perpetuates the myth that First Nations people are in the position they're in because its their own fault for being lazy and not working harder. It perpetuates the myth that institutional racism is a thing of the past and that we now live in a meritocracy where people only have themselves to blame for their socio-economic situation. Arguments like that ignore the historic policies that are the reason Canada's aboriginal people are in the boat they're in now.

It's only racist because you have decided it's racist. The exact same argument was made frequently around the Occupy protests, was it racist then?

Oh, and perhaps you'd be well advised to not come into a thread and blindly paint people as racist to only disappear and then return with half-assed responses. Typically that isn't going to work out so well.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by Knalus

While this may sound like it's true, these were the same arguments used during the "occupy" movement, and there was no race issue brought up then. Your point isn't completely valid or invalid.

Yep, history shouldn't be an excuse IMO. Everyone's familly at one point or another has suffered but it's not going to get you anywhere dwelling on something that happened so long ago. You have to make something of your life on your own because in the end relying on someone else will only leave you poor. Modern Canadians are a very welcoming people and we want to help the unfortunate get a hand up and live a good life but all the help in the world won't make a difference if that person is not willing to help themselves.

[RichKlit]

My god is everyone so thin skinned and politically castrated i mean correct that this thread is now the standard for racism? Get a grip. There are questions that have to be answered for both sides to move forward, denying the facts or downplaying them will damage the movement more than they already are by screwing with the average citizen by blocking roads.

The claims of racism is getting tiresome and the more its used the less power it has, i think some need to be more careful when using that word.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by valo403

It's only racist because you have decided it's racist. The exact same argument was made frequently around the Occupy protests, was it racist then?

Oh, and perhaps you'd be well advised to not come into a thread and blindly paint people as racist to only disappear and then return with half-assed responses. Typically that isn't going to work out so well.

I would argue that in this context it can be viewed as racist. Its just another way of saying "hey native people, you want a better life? quit being lazy and get a job".

[valo403]

Originally Posted by icecube

I would argue that in this context it can be viewed as racist. Its just another way of saying "hey native people, you want a better life? quit being lazy and get a job".

It can be viewed as racist if you decide to twist it that way, which you have. It by no means is the type of statement that makes your initial post in this thread at all accurate or acceptable.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by RichKlit

My god is everyone so thin skinned and politically castrated i mean correct that this thread is now the standard for racism? Get a grip. There are questions that have to be answered for both sides to move forward, denying the facts or downplaying them will damage the movement more than they already are by screwing with the average citizen by blocking roads.

The claims of racism is getting tiresome and the more its used the less power it has, i think some need to be more careful when using that word.

Some may accuse me of being oversensitive. The fact remains that there are many racist posts in this thread. I also said there was a lot of ignorance and a lot of outdated colonial thoughts and "we know whats best for them" attitudes. Which there is. I'm taking offense because you read page after page of it and you're gonna get upset. Not everyone in this thread is guilty of it. Many are.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by valo403

It can be viewed as racist if you decide to twist it that way, which you have. It by no means is the type of statement that makes your initial post in this thread at all accurate or acceptable.

So are you denying that this thread abounds with bigotted attitudes and thinly veiled racism? There is a lot of it. I don't know how you could even argue it.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by icecube

I would argue that in this context it can be viewed as racist. Its just another way of saying "hey native people, you want a better life? quit being lazy and get a job".

I don't think of myself as racist but what I always challange all my kids to do is pull their thumbs out of their arse, quit blaming others (be they parents, the ministry, white canada or even me) and get a job, at the end of the day it is the only solution, it is what enabled chinese people, who were just as looked down on in Canada, to achieve prosperity.

In the end if you think of yourself as victim that is what you will be.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by icecube

So are you denying that this thread abounds with bigotted attitudes and thinly veiled racism? There is a lot of it. I don't know how you could even argue it.

There are certainly some cases of it, but again, you didn't point out or address a few cases, you tarred everyone, and even worse you did it as a drive by. You also have done an incredibly poor job of supporting your stance today.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by icecube

I would argue that in this context it can be viewed as racist. Its just another way of saying "hey native people, you want a better life? quit being lazy and get a job".

Problem with that viewpoint is that many people on this forum and in Alberta had the exact same reaction to the Occupy movement.

Except it was Hey students/hippes/whatever, you want a better life? Stop whining and get a job!"

I also think it is a very bad idea to blockade major roads, it will make for even further antagonistic relations, which is further compounded by the fact that there is no clear message. If you are going to interrupt people's daily lifes, you better be able to relate it in a compelling way.

If the movement wants a voice, it needs focus. It's just the way it is.

[WCan_Kid]

Originally Posted by icecube

Its racist because it perpetuates the myth that First Nations people are in the position they're in because its their own fault for being lazy and not working harder. It perpetuates the myth that institutional racism is a thing of the past and that we now live in a meritocracy where people only have themselves to blame for their socio-economic situation. Arguments like that ignore the historic policies that are the reason Canada's aboriginal people are in the boat they're in now.

I don't think anyone beyond the most hardcore rednecks are lumping all First Nations people together, there are plenty of First Nations people that were subjected to the same "institutional racism" who have managed to do quite nicely at improving their socio-economic status by actually taking advantage of the opportunities available to them.

Seems more racist to be assuming that they're all the same because of their skin color...

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by icecube

I thought we all knew already that "Idle no more" is a grassroots movement that began by protesting the omnibus bill C- 45, particularly regarding the parts that affect navigable waterways. The government has a fiduciary responsibility to negotiate with First Nations when legislation affects them. The Harper government in particular has continually neglected to do this and finally people had enough.

Okay, so here's a couple of things. First, your view is that there are issues with a particular part of an omnibus bill. If someone had bothered to frame the debate that way - "here are the issues we're having and here's what we want done about them" - I might look at that position and decide I agree with it. This hasn't been done. I would bet if you asked half of the protestors exactly what bill they were upset about and why, they would not be able to provide you with a clear answer, much like occupy.

Second, if the Government has a fiduciary obligation that it is not complying with, then the omnibus bill is unconstitutional. That is a matter that is within the jurisdiction and the particular expertise of the judiciary to decide. Get off the bridge, take the thing to court and get it struck down! Hell, you could've started a reference case as soon as these measures were proposed. Maybe this has even been done, and I am just not aware of it because no one has made it clear that it was being done.

The movement is all over the place now because different bands across the country have started voicing their own concerns relating to their people.

Then it's not a "movement", it's a bunch of angry mobs who happen to share a common cultural background and who have militated their anger against a vaguely defined adversary (the Canadian government) that isn't really an adversary at all.

There are so many things wrong in this country and people are seriously wondering "why all the protesting?". I don't see why it all has to be wrapped up in a pretty little bow and one issue gets protested.

Yes, of course they are. Are you serious? The list of "so many things that are wrong" in this country is subjective and what you might see as wrong, I might see as perfectly acceptable! Hence the need to identify the things you're opposed to so that others can determine whether they're on side with you in rallying to change those things and in how those changes should be made. This isn't rocket science!

I come from a city where police were murdering First Nations people by driving them out to the middle of nowhere in the dead of winter. This went on for a couple decades until they were caught. I live in a province where three men raped a 12 year old First Nations girl and got away with no more than a slap on the wrist. I could go on and on why this movement is happening right now. I think people are being deliberately obtuse if they can't see it.

There is no logical connection between past (even recent) injustices and blocking a bridge. What purpose does this serve? "We're angry that this stuff happened, it was a horrible injustice and we're going to make you late for dinner despite the fact that you had no knowledge or involvement?" That's farcical.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by icecube

Some may accuse me of being oversensitive. The fact remains that there are many racist posts in this thread. I also said there was a lot of ignorance and a lot of outdated colonial thoughts and "we know whats best for them" attitudes. Which there is. I'm taking offense because you read page after page of it and you're gonna get upset. Not everyone in this thread is guilty of it. Many are.

I don't know how we can even discuss the Idle no more, and/or Theresa Spence's actions without sounding racist to you. I really don't.

Should we put a warning in the title that this thread may contain content that some viewers find offensive.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by icecube

So are you denying that this thread abounds with bigotted attitudes and thinly veiled racism? There is a lot of it. I don't know how you could even argue it.

There is nothing like that in this thread - so stop the BS - it's annoying

[moon]

Originally Posted by icecube

The fact remains that there are many racist posts in this thread.

Then point them out.

You have quoted two posts, both which weren't racist, and then continually toss this garbage accusation out as though it is true just because you say it is.