2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

What exactly do you want Monahan to do to turn his game around? I like the direction his game is going this year very, very much. I think many others do to. Please enlighten us exactly what you mean with this statement. I am willing to bet AC can find a clip of him doing exactly what you want him to from this season.

People can cherry pick clips, like i can too of good Bennet moments.


I want to see more goals with a defender draped on his back. Goals of him going to the ice to chip a puck past a goalie. Taking a hit to make a play. I'll wait.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Beyond you being undoutedly correct with your anecdotal watching of Bertuzzi and Iginla in comparison to Bennett, the satistical argument also makes no sense for comparison.

Bertuzzi was a .5 ppg contributor in his rookie season, had a couple of down years, then was a consistent .5ppg producer through injuries until the '99 season (his 6th in the league.) Also all of this was in the middle of the dead puck era.

Iginla put up 50 points and 20+ goals in his rookie season (largely alone) had a small sophomore slump where he still put up ~.5ppg, and then was at PPG by his 5th season in the league. The 6th season was his 52 goal campaign.

This year is Bennett's 6th Season with the team (if we don't count his 1 game stint. Wow, time flies...)
Bennett's best season was his rookie season, which was very respectable. He put up 18 goals and had almost .5 ppg. He has been on a steep decline since, topping out at 27 points (three straight seasons right around that mark) and putting up an absolutely abysmal -57. This is by far the worst on our team in this period, and probably is one of the worst in the league. I will look into this and confirm. EDIT: He is 20th worst in the league since he entered. BTW we should never trade for Ristolainen and Severson lol.

This season, Iginla and Bertuzzi would both be PPG players while having shown consistent progression through the NHL's toughest era to score in. Bennett has played in some of the highest offensive seasons of the last 2 decades, and can't generate anything. Before you bring up linemate quality, just try and remember who Iginla played with his entire career.

Both of those players were given ample top line and pp1 opportunities of the likes of which bennet has never received.



And can't generate anything is suspicious. He has very limited ice time comparatively.



-57, with this team? the goalies we have trotted out there? plus minus is a flawed stat to evaluate players.


The majority of the fanbase has soured on Benny. Understandable. Hopefully he isn't traded in the division and we get a decent package in return for a warrior like Benny. Well when johnny leaves we will see who monny really is i suppose. That's a more realistic outcome to all of this than this team making any noise in the playoffs.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

What exactly do you want Monahan to do to turn his game around? I like the direction his game is going this year very, very much. I think many others do to. Please enlighten us exactly what you mean with this statement. I am willing to bet AC can find a clip of him doing exactly what you want him to from this season.

Monahan has set up Gaudreau a lot more than the reverse so far this year. IMO he got ripped off last game on Tkachuk’s 2nd goal, which he set up with a great breakaway pass.

That said, I expect his points may take a hit a bit if the Lindholm line eats more minutes. He’s certainly playing a much harder game this year.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

People can cherry pick clips, like i can too of good Bennet moments.


I want to see more goals with a defender draped on his back. Goals of him going to the ice to chip a puck past a goalie. Taking a hit to make a play. I'll wait.

The guy takes more cross checks to the back than 98% of the league. I think you just need to watch more flames games my friend.

Regarding your other post defending +/-. Sure, but the closest person on the team to him in that stretch is Troy Brouwer at -18. Here you can see it with your own eyes:


If the whole team was even remotely close then your argument would hold water. But Sam is on an absolute island of his own. That points to him being the problem.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

Well when johnny leaves we will see who monny really is i suppose. That's a more realistic outcome to all of this than this team making any noise in the playoffs.

We got to see this already in Monahan's rookie season, which was better than any season that Bennett has had in the NHL.

I get it, you're dug in and have decided there is nothing that can change your mind. But can you at least concede how irrational/ based on emotion your opinion is?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

We got to see this already in Monahan's rookie season, which was better than any season that Bennett has had in the NHL.

We have also seen it in a few games in which Monahan has played while Gaudreau was injured. His production took a bit of a hit when Gaudreau missed games in 2016, but it was still there.

However, it is very much unlike the final several weeks of the 2017–18 season, when Monahan was shelved with injuries and Gaudreau spent a stretch of games with Sam Bennett and Derek Ryan alternating as his centreman in March and April. Gaudreau's production cratered, and Bennett's was completely absent.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

The guy takes more cross checks to the back than 98% of the league. I think you just need to watch more flames games my friend.

Regarding your other post defending +/-. Sure, but the closest person on the team to him in that stretch is Troy Brouwer at -18. Here you can see it with your own eyes:


If the whole team was even remotely close then your argument would hold water. But Sam is on an absolute island of his own. That points to him being the problem.

I don't care about +/- as a stat personally. It's a team stat if anything. Your point is flawed since it depends on a stat derived from a 5 man unit plus a goaltender. Many people don't value +/- as a personal stat. Look who's number 5 on that list? monny...



I watch a lot of flames hockey. I have been a fan a long time. Monohan doesn't take cross checks to the back that often. Joe thornton. Matt Tkachuk. Marchand. Hertl? bergeron? sure. I guess we suffer from the same issue of rose coloured glasses for the players we prefer. monohan is a "when the going is easy player". benny is a low confidence bottom six player.



monhan is a good snap shooter. I just don't like his game and the flames by trying to trade him for Pierre Luc Dubois says volumes. PLD is a far cry statistically from monny.



They are only going to trade bennet because he wanted a trade, or for a star(former hart winner) first liner like hall that was rumored.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

We got to see this already in Monahan's rookie season, which was better than any season that Bennett has had in the NHL.

I get it, you're dug in and have decided there is nothing that can change your mind. But can you at least concede how irrational/ based on emotion your opinion is?

You're guilty of the same thing. Using plus minus? such a flawed premise. Irrational and emotional? You defend monohan as if he has no warts. You asked me what I'd like to see him do, and when i give you an answer you avoid it. Let's just agree to disagree. Just stop with the holier than thou attitude. Like since you're being stoic and rational! Your fist response to me to "GTFO".



I don't like how the flames have managed their team and given out ice time. Ice time is a product of the coach. The flames are notorious bargin bin hunters for coaches. This plagues our systems.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

...monhan is a good snap shooter. I just don't like his game and the flames by trying to trade him for Pierre Luc Dubois says volumes. PLD is a far cry statistically from monny.

What's this?

They are only going to trade bennet because he wanted a trade, or for a star(former hart winner) first liner like hall that was rumored.

Oh my good lord. It does nothing for your argument to pretend that you know what is going on inside of Brad Treliving's head.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

monhan is a good snap shooter. I just don't like his game and the flames by trying to trade him for Pierre Luc Dubois says volumes.

When did this happen???

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

We have also seen it in a few games in which Monahan has played while Gaudreau was injured. His production took a bit of a hit when Gaudreau missed games in 2016, but it was still there.

However, it is very much unlike the final several weeks of the 2017–18 season, when Monahan was shelved with injuries and Gaudreau spent a stretch of games with Sam Bennett and Derek Ryan alternating as his centreman in March and April. Gaudreau's production cratered, and Bennett's was completely absent.

Without diving into the game stats from these times.



So 2017-18, benny was up there for what six games? Wow some audition. Especially when it's the most grueling stretch.


Even then though, I have admitted i agree with the assessment of Bennet being a below average offensive player with other tangible skills.


I see it for what it is. He isn't doing himself any more favors in this market. He needs to produce or he will become an afterthought. He needs to adapt his game to his team mates better. That's a pride thing or an IQ thing.



I still like the player and want him to center a line up.


Johnny Monny Lindy
Tkchuk Benny and Dube
Mangiapane Backlund Leivo
Lucic Ryan and Nordstrom



I think that line up would cause more problems. Lindy doesn't give the team as much at center. I like him as the 2way responsible player on the top line.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What's this?


Oh my good lord. It does nothing for your argument to pretend that you know what is going on inside of Brad Treliving's head.

https://www.nhltraderumors.me/2020/1...st-pulled.html


And the Dubois one hasn't been verified as to the contents of the package offered but it was Johnny or monny being offered. I'm sure a story will emerge from somewhere in the future detailing their pursuit.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

https://www.nhltraderumors.me/2020/1...st-pulled.html


And the Dubois one hasn't been verified as to the contents of the package offered but it was Johnny or monny being offered. I'm sure a story will emerge from somewhere in the future detailing their pursuit.

Bahahaha.

Alrighty then.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

I don't care about +/- as a stat personally. It's a team stat if anything. Your point is flawed since it depends on a stat derived from a 5 man unit plus a goaltender. Many people don't value +/- as a personal stat. Look who's number 5 on that list? monny...

lol Mony #5 on that list has been on the ice for 45 less goals against than Bennett over that stretch. 1 goal every 4 games.

You nailed it, it's a team stat UNLESS one player is way out of whack with the rest of the team. The rest of the team, as you can see in the photo, is hovering between 0 (austin czarnik) and -18 (Brouwer). The fact that Benny is such a massive outlier should be setting off all the alarm bells for you. You're so close to the actual realization you're just refusing to see it. Dissonance.

Bennett is Further beyond the lower boundary of the team's +/- than the disparity that exists between all other players on the roster. The guy bleeds goals against, its actually what he is statistically best at.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

Without diving into the game stats from these times.

So 2017-18, benny was up there for what six games? Wow some audition. Especially when it's the most grueling stretch.

But he was playing with Gaudreau. Do you remember this?

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

[Monahan]’s not 100x the player at all. He’s a one trick pony...

IMO guys like him only win riding shotgun. He’s a nail not a hammer.

He’s a good complimentary player who’s had the virtue of playing with a dynamic water bug in Johnny hockey...

The point was actually a lot less about Bennett, and moreso about how much Gaudreau has benefitted from playing his entire career with Sean Monahan. The fact that Gaudreau struggled as mightily as he did when Monahan was last injured speaks volumes to his value. Both Monahan and Gaudreau have helped one another ALOT; their success has not been about one player making everything happen.

Even then though, I have admitted i agree with the assessment of Bennet being a below average offensive player with other tangible skills.

You have? Where?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

But he was playing with Gaudreau. Do you remember this?


The point was actually a lot less about Bennett, and moreso about how much Gaudreau has benefitted from playing his entire career with Sean Monahan. The fact that Gaudreau struggled as mightily as he did when Monahan was last injured speaks volumes to his value. Both Monahan and Gaudreau have helped one another ALOT; their successs has not been about one player making everything happen.


You have? Where?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Boooooo!

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

The guy takes more cross checks to the back than 98% of the league. I think you just need to watch more flames games my friend.

Regarding your other post defending +/-. Sure, but the closest person on the team to him in that stretch is Troy Brouwer at -18. Here you can see it with your own eyes:


If the whole team was even remotely close then your argument would hold water. But Sam is on an absolute island of his own. That points to him being the problem.

Not that it’s a big deal, but if you pro rate based on number of games

Brouwer -18 over 150 is equivalent to -45 over 372
Wideman -15 over 108 is -52
Rieder -12 over 55 is -81
Versteeg -11 over 93 is -44
Bollig -10 over 54 is -69
Colborne -9 over 73 is -46

The absolute island gets a bit more crowded when you correct for sample size

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

lol Mony #5 on that list has been on the ice for 45 less goals against than Bennett over that stretch. 1 goal every 4 games.

You nailed it, it's a team stat UNLESS one player is way out of whack with the rest of the team. The rest of the team, as you can see in the photo, is hovering between 0 (austin czarnik) and -18 (Brouwer). The fact that Benny is such a massive outlier should be setting off all the alarm bells for you. You're so close to the actual realization you're just refusing to see it. Dissonance.

Bennett is Further beyond the lower boundary of the team's +/- than the disparity that exists between all other players on the roster. The guy bleeds goals against, its actually what he is statistically best at.

Unless ? according to you! show me an executive using plus minus in such a fashion? until then your point doesn't hold water.



The flames have not been conducive to his maturation into an above average offensive player.




https://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...-advanced.html


so few dzone starts for a reason. but still -12 cumulatively. The whole line has been defensive disaster.



https://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...-advanced.html


benny has recieved tougher minutes from his 3 year in while monohan gets a pass.




their shot creation per 60 is similar too. But one gets way more ice and pp time.


how's that for being emotional and irrational?


well lets just agree he's a polarizing player: Bennett.


He's a below average offensive player right now. But i'd argue usage as his biggest detriment.

[dammage79]

Players I'm totally hoping can be reeled in with Sam Bennett as the carrot:

Rakell
Mike McLeod
Poolparty
Zacha

Plus a lot more.

Detroit seems like a thing to me here. Yzerman I bet wants in.