[News] CSEC and City of Calgary agree to restart formal discussions on new arena

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

So it's useful just to think though your point logically before getting so angry.

Education isn't a business, at least not K-12. It's a service that is designed to produce an educated workforce which can grow an economy.

You wouldn't believe it, but there are very few skills you would get from running a car dealership, a Wendy's, or being a radio host that apply to leading education.

Now you could argue that higher education is a business, and in many places it is, especially the US.

What will blow your mind is that those higher education institutions are largely run by education professionals. And at prestigious, private institutions it is often run by tenured professors, often ones with no experience running a small business. And they end up being the best in the world! Is it a surprise that where teachers have more input into education they have better outcomes (Scandinavia for one).

The problem is when one political party realizes that the more educated a workforce is, the more likely they are to vote for the other party. And that's where it breaks down.

[Scooter]

Someone please tell me they are not still talking about the West Village as a potential site for the new arena! That idea should have been buried with KK.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Scooter

Someone please tell me they are not still talking about the West Village as a potential site for the new arena! That idea should have been buried with KK.

You may (or may not) be aware that there are some relatives of KK on this board. Post whatever you want but a little tact might go a long ways.

[GioforPM]

WV site is not that bad, and developed underused land. The proposal wasn't great.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

You may (or may not) be aware that there are some relatives of KK on this board. Post whatever you want but a little tact might go a long ways.

Oh I'm sure he's aware, pretty par for the course for this local "gem".

IamNotKenKing, sorry you're subjected to this gross behaviour.

[CroFlames]

Someone has to clean up the site at some point, I mean come on. You can just leave it there forever.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

WV site is not that bad, and developed underused land. The proposal wasn't great.

It is bad, and the bad proposal highlighted it.

[Monahammer]

I like Calgary next and I don't care who knows it. As a sports and entertainment consumer, it makes sense to me to put the McMahon replacement right beside the arena, and maximize the use of those facilities. It would be cool to get the soccer team downtown instead of way out in the meadows as well. Also, it would be nice to put something of a draw on that end of downtown.

[marsplasticeraser]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Someone has to clean up the site at some point, I mean come on. You can just leave it there forever.

The West Village will be very important land for the growth of Calgary in 20 years.

Once the Beltline, East Village, and Rivers are all built out, WV will be the biggest undeveloped plot near downtown and critical for our city growth.

Developers will pay the city to build condos on that land.

So why pay $1 Billion and give the land away for free to the Flames now when we can just wait and build in other suitable places?

It's literally just the flames that want the WV because they likely have a bunch of land near there they can build condos on, or they are hoping the city gives them the land to build condos for free as well.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Someone has to clean up the site at some point, I mean come on. You can just leave it there forever.

Calgarypuck, or the West Village?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

The West Village will be very important land for the growth of Calgary in 20 years.

Once the Beltline, East Village, and Rivers are all built out, WV will be the biggest undeveloped plot near downtown and critical for our city growth.

Developers will pay the city to build condos on that land.

So why pay $1 Billion and give the land away for free to the Flames now when we can just wait and build in other suitable places?

It's literally just the flames that want the WV because they likely have a bunch of land near there they can build condos on, or they are hoping the city gives them the land to build condos for free as well.

It has always been about the land play. They want to spin into land development overlords like Katz. That's the important goal in their minds.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

It is bad, and the bad proposal highlighted it.

It's not a bad location at all. And it is underused. It's the proposal that didn't work well, and the presenttation was worse.

The City and the Flames are pushing EV and WV respectively for identical purposes.

[Strange Brew]

The appeal of the West Village is rather obvious. It is scenic and a unique part of the city with the associated views so it's obvious why people want to see it developed.

Starting with an arena doesn't seem like the greatest idea to me though. I don't really see those things as focal points of successful development.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's not a bad location at all. And it is underused.

Take away the creosote, and it's still flanked by barriers on all sides that inhibit good pedestrian access. Bow Trail and the CP tracks. River. 14th St Interchange and Crowchild. Just awful. Any integration into the surrounding area is inhibited. Any active transport access is severely restricted.

Transit access is noticeably worse than a Victoria Park location. Sure there's Sunalta Station, but that is only one line. Access to the Red Line is twice as far a walk (with the aforementioned pedestrian barriers), won't be anywhere near the Green Line. The Blue Line doesn't have the capacity to take on that kind of traffic. So it's a site that has worse access, which will push more people to drive, in which case where will they park? The purpose of this project isn't to have more parking, surely.

The West Village site is isolated and restrictive to the kind of traffic that helps develop the surrounding area. Adding to it, the scale of an arena or arena/stadium monstrosity would only further isolate any developable area on the western portion of the site, as arenas and stadiums are in themselves barriers, making it even less desirable for development (aside from parking lots, likely).

The City and the Flames are pushing EV and WV respectively for identical purposes.

I'd disagree. The city is pushing the EV site because it will help provide the opportunities to make the area better.

The Flames are pushing WV because it creates the opportunities for them to make them more money.

[Muta]

I think the WV location is a terrific location and has more accessible, city-wide major transportation routes than the current location - N-S on Crowchild Trail, E-W on Bow Trail, the river path on the north side, and accessible on the Blue Line LRT. Its proximity to Kensington, Sunalta and west downtown is great too, and biking becomes more of a legitimate option. Great aesthetic location for residential and commercial development too... I think 10th Street is going to become the next 'it' street in Calgary, starting in Sunalta (and it's already starting).

The only thing I don't like is that it doesn't connect as easy to the Green Line and Red Line LRTs, and you would need to transfer as a train commuter. That said, I don't think it's an impossible challenge to cross; currently, you have to do it to get onto the Blue Line from the Saddledome anyways.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Muta

biking becomes more of a legitimate option.

I'm big on biking anywhere, year round.

That said, nothing says "free bike" like leaving it locked up somewhere that everyone knows it will be unattended for 3 hours. That and storage of helmets/bags in venues is really really cumbersome. I'd bike to Flames games today if these weren't issues.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I'm big on biking anywhere, year round.

That said, nothing says "free bike" like leaving it locked up somewhere that everyone knows it will be unattended for 3 hours. That and storage of helmets/bags in venues is really really cumbersome. I'd bike to Flames games today if these weren't issues.

Haha fair point - what if the design of a new facility / streetscape factored in secure bike storage?

[Jimmy Stang]

With the province poised to give 20 billion public dollars to private companies to clean up messes that they are already required to do on their own (abandoned oil wells), I don't think that the West Village is as much of a long shot anymore.

Personally, I think that the West Village is a less than ideal location, and I'm not a fan of public dollars being used to clean up private messes. I think that it would be terrible in so many ways, but... I could see it happening.

The province gets to contribute in a way that lets them spin it as a nice little environmental gift to Calgary (and definitely not a stadium handout, even though everyone will know it is), which would a boost in the lead-up to an election in "battleground Calgary". Contribute without contributing directly.

The Flames get to congratulate themselves on the visionary CalgaryNext concept that was just too good that the public needed years to realize it. (It remains a half-cooked idea).

And the city will be on the hook for a less valuable piece of land that they can't develop anyway, not to mention the ability to redevelop the Victoria Park area properly with the CMLC back in the saddle, and without the CSEC being involved. Of course, the city would need to fund expensive upgrades to infrastructure in the vicinity, but that has much better optics for the public than dumping a bunch of cash and land into a stadium. The public doesn't seem to mind as much when millions are spent on roads and interchanges.

I very much prefer the Victoria Park option, but I don't think that CalgaryNext is as dead as we think it is.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Muta

Haha fair point - what if the design of a new facility / streetscape factored in secure bike storage?

Secure biking would be incredible if you could retrieve your bike from a separate storage area and have a bike in/bike out right-of-way that lets people get back to the river pathway quickly (or 10th ave, or possibly a new ROW). Could even use an app to reserve a game-day storage lock.


That said, I suspect if the Flames own the parking revenues they would minimize the biking options. Corporate owners be like that

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Secure biking would be incredible if you could retrieve your bike from a separate storage area and have a bike in/bike out right-of-way that lets people get back to the river pathway quickly (or 10th ave, or possibly a new ROW). Could even use an app to reserve a game-day storage lock.


That said, I suspect if the Flames own the parking revenues they would minimize the biking options. Corporate owners be like that

I'm all for biking infrastructure, but who's biking home from a Flames game at 10:30pm after 4-5 beers?