[Rumour] Flames Not Yet Done - More to Come? Possible D for F?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Pickle Juice

I still think JT miller should be a strong possibility.

Huberdeau Miller Lindholm
Mangie Kadri Toffoli

That’s a beauty 1,2 punch in my opinion.

Not very realistic though when you consider the cost from a division rival and the cap.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Insult noted. Insults are not arguments, and calling me names does not make you right.



I don't. They'll be playing an AHLer as their #6. If Tanev isn't 100% at the start of the season, make that #5.



In your opinion. The fact of the matter is, the defencemen who logged the most time against McDavid and Draisaitl had the worst numbers, which is exactly what one would expect. If you think Hanifin should have done better against a pair of forwards who made every single defenceman in the league look silly, then I suggest you tell me what you would have considered an acceptable performance from him.



I don't buy that. As they say on Wikipedia, ‘*citation needed’.

The Flames jumped through all kinds of hoops to get the sort of defensive depth where they don't need to have a tweener logging heavy minutes in next year's playoffs. Now you want to trade it away again and put them right back where they were – one injury away from a defensive train wreck.



Why do you hate Americans so much? Honestly, here I see another poster who thinks American hockey players have no other mission in life but to screw Canadian teams over.



Of course, those are the only two options available. Because you can't trade him during this season, or next off-season. You can't attempt to re-sign him. Nope, if you don't trade him right this minute, with two years left on his deal, he will absolutely certainly walk.

Is that your argument?

When you take my point and completely twist it and miss every point I make and come back with nonsense like you just posted above, what would you like me to do? Pat you on the back?

I suggested trading Hanifin for a legit top 6 rw, that means I want to fire him into the sun? lol

I suggested putting Valamaki into the 6th slot, he isn't ready, I stated if you can move Lucic you have the required cap space to bring in a depth Dman for your bottom pairing, according to the above I only want a #5 or #6 to fill in that slot lol.

I made the point that Weegar is so elite IMO, in terms of the exact game he brings to the table, that you now have the ability to work from a position of extreme strength to tackle a position of extreme weakness, and still have one of the best dcores in the league, now I want to put them back in a position to where they were? They didn't have Weegar last year. If Tanev is healthy do they beat the Oilers? lol

I bring up a fact regarding Americans on this team leaving, I now "hate" Americans? So does management not have to at least be aware of whats happened specifically with American players? lol

In terms of trading him later, sure you can, but I personally feel, given the moves Tre made, this team has the ability do so some major damage if they can sort out that particular weakness. Also deadline moves, trading partners aren't exactly looking at a hockey trade, you deal with teams that are looking for futures, I personally have no interest in trading another 1st round pick. The offseason, you have every team at your disposal and hockey trades for both parties are much more common than in season.

Who are the Flames competition in the west? Colorado and Edmonton? If you rank the forwards and D of each team how would you rank them?

The Flames have a D a notch below Colorado and way better than Edmonton, does that change if Hanifin is moved? I don't think so, it remains the same.

Upfront we are 3rd amongst those teams, the Avs have star power and depth, the Oilers have 2 of the top 6 or 7 players in the league and decent depth, the Flames don't have the same star power as either team, you have to compensate somehow to make up for it and I think Hanifins value can bring in a piece where that gap can be significantly cut short because now with the acquisition of Kadri the Flames won't be so top heavy reliant as last year.

If Weegar wasn't acquired and we resigned Gundbranson, I wouldn't suggest this, now that we have Weegar and I think hes that much of a difference maker, we can afford to take a educated gamble.

[memphusk]

I hope Weegar is what everyone says he is. Thats a perfect fit at that age to get something strong for Hanafin. Who would you rather have is what it comes down to.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by CGY12

Point completely above your head again I see.

1) I'm not suggesting firing him into the sun, I'm suggesting improving a position of extreme weakness by subtracting from a position of extreme strength. Do the Flames still have an strong to an elite D if you subtract Hanifin from the fold? I think they do.

2) The good old excuse of everybody looked terrible and well he was matched up against McD so he gets a free pass is not valid IMO. If your supposedly one of our best defensemen and probably the strongest skater of the group, I'd expect some level of competency out there, even against Mcdavid. Thats not to suggest hes going to shut him down but he looked utterly lost more often then not.

3) Weegar is so elite and in my opinion instantly becomes our best Dman that I think you can afford to move somebody.

4) I'm suggesting Hanifin because he would have the most value from a age/contract and whether we like it or not, with 2 years left on his deal and being American, hes a flight risk. Trade him and try and maximize value to address another need, or what wait till 23/24 deadline to see what he decides?

I am with you on this..

It’s kinda funny how these things work within this fan base. Two years ago we were all disappointed in Gaudreau, Tkachuk and Hanifin’s seasons and were talking about how they weren’t good enough.

Fast forward to today and all three had career seasons this past year and we all changed our tunes and loved them again (until the unsavoury exodus). Now two of those guys are gone and most fans rip anyone apart at the thought of trading Hanifin..

We have 10 Dmen on 1-way deals and Stone sitting in the background waiting for a contract offer from us.

We have a glaring hole in the forward group because I don’t think it is wise to hand Pelletier and/or Ruzicka those spots because even if they are ready - btw I do believe they are both ready for regular NHL mins - we still only have 13 NHL forwards total including them both.

It doesn’t seem logical to me we would go into the season with both of them penciled into the top 13 forwards and not having much in way of experienced vets on the farm to call up.

Injuries will happen so we need more forward depth.

Last season we had one of the best D groups; how is the one below so different?:

Weegar-Andersson
Kylington-Tanev
Zadorov-______

The blank could be Stone, Meloche, Mackey or Valimaki.

Meloche established himself as a big, strong, physical, RHD who played on the PK last season and a big reason he wasn’t qualified by SJ is because of the logjam of dmen they had at the time (before Burns trade and Knyzov Achilles injury).

To me this guys sounds a bit like a younger Gudbranson who can play on the 3rd pair and contribute on the PK. I remember we all weren’t keen on Gudbranson before he got here but Sutter did wonders with him. Maybe, just maybe he is a hidden gem we unearthed that can replace Gudbranson.

If not we would still have the safety net of having Stone, Mackey and Valimaki around who, with the exception of Valimaki, we can agree deserve NHL icetime (I still love Valimaki but I know how most view him around here).

Lastly, if we want to upgrade on forward via trade we aren’t getting that piece for Valimaki, Mackey or Meloche.

Hanifin or Kylington are the only two that would likely garner a strong enough return for it to be worth while and IMO even Kylington is likely more valuable to us than in a trade.

Hanifin’s value is as high as ever, let’s see what kind of RWer we can get for him and let Sutter et al. do their thing with a new but still very strong and much more deep D core.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Not very realistic though when you consider the cost from a division rival and the cap.

Miller is RW isn’t he?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CGY12

When you take my point and completely twist it and miss every point I make and come back with nonsense like you just posted above, what would you like me to do? Pat you on the back?

I suggested trading Hanifin for a legit top 6 rw, that means I want to fire him into the sun? lol

I suggested putting Valamaki into the 6th slot, he isn't ready, I stated if you can move Lucic you have the required cap space to bring in a depth Dman for your bottom pairing, according to the above I only want a #5 or #6 to fill in that slot lol.

I made the point that Weegar is so elite IMO, in terms of the exact game he brings to the table, that you now have the ability to work from a position of extreme strength to tackle a position of extreme weakness, and still have one of the best dcores in the league, now I want to put them back in a position to where they were? They didn't have Weegar last year. If Tanev is healthy do they beat the Oilers? lol

I bring up a fact regarding Americans on this team leaving, I now "hate" Americans? So does management not have to at least be aware of whats happened specifically with American players? lol

In terms of trading him later, sure you can, but I personally feel, given the moves Tre made, this team has the ability do so some major damage if they can sort out that particular weakness. Also deadline moves, trading partners aren't exactly looking at a hockey trade, you deal with teams that are looking for futures, I personally have no interest in trading another 1st round pick. The offseason, you have every team at your disposal and hockey trades for both parties are much more common than in season.

Who are the Flames competition in the west? Colorado and Edmonton? If you rank the forwards and D of each team how would you rank them?

The Flames have a D a notch below Colorado and way better than Edmonton, does that change if Hanifin is moved? I don't think so, it remains the same.

Upfront we are 3rd amongst those teams, the Avs have star power and depth, the Oilers have 2 of the top 6 or 7 players in the league and decent depth, the Flames don't have the same star power as either team, you have to compensate somehow to make up for it and I think Hanifins value can bring in a piece where that gap can be significantly cut short because now with the acquisition of Kadri the Flames won't be so top heavy reliant as last year.

If Weegar wasn't acquired and we resigned Gundbranson, I wouldn't suggest this, now that we have Weegar and I think hes that much of a difference maker, we can afford to take a educated gamble.

Agreed with this 100%, and I bet Treliving is thinking this way too and we'll see a significant D-man shipped out for a top 6 forward before the season starts, unless he can upgrade to his satisfaction without doing so. As like you said - The trade deadline is about trading futures for now and then hoping the player can adjust to the team and make a difference in short order.

There's major value in making the trade before the season and having that player play the whole season and also trade players for players so we don't mortgage any more of the future.

JayRandom is actually one of my favourite posters and I'm so glad he came back, but I've noticed you have to understand that his discussion style is to take posters words or thoughts and push them to the extreme of what he can bend them to and "slam" you with where he pushed your words. It's irritating and I try to just manually tone down his response to something more reasonable and friendly and respond from that, lol. Doesn't always work. Think of it like speaking to a lawyer on the opposite side of a court case. It's not friendly, it's adversarial and you need to consider every word typed.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Agreed with this 100%, and I bet Treliving is thinking this way too and we'll see a significant D-man shipped out for a top 6 forward before the season starts, unless he can upgrade to his satisfaction without doing so. As like you said - The trade deadline is about trading futures for now and then hoping the player can adjust to the team and make a difference in short order.

There's major value in making the trade before the season and having that player play the whole season and also trade players for players so we don't mortgage any more of the future.

JayRandom is actually one of my favourite posters and I'm so glad he came back, but I've noticed you have to understand that his discussion style is to take posters words or thoughts and push them to the extreme of what he can bend them to and "slam" you with where he pushed your words. It's irritating and I try to just manually tone down his response to something more reasonable and friendly and respond from that, lol. Doesn't always work. Think of it like speaking to a lawyer on the opposite side of a court case. It's not friendly, it's adversarial and you need to consider every word typed.

I have no idea who he is or if he's a frequent poster or not, but noted, I don't mind adversarial banter lol.

At the end of the day we all want to see the team kick a$$ and posting what each of us thinks needs to be done to get to that next level.

As much as i've slammed the team the last couple years and criticized the core/BT. I'm super impressed with what he's done and happy we are deviating from the previous core. I was skeptical about the teams chances last year in the playoffs because of that core forward group, this year its the complete opposite. BTs wizardry has me excited about how this team can perform when it matters, for the first time in years. I really think if we can add a legit top 6 RW we are in business. I don't think anybody on the free agent market closes the gap enough with the Avs or Oilers upfront, where you can avoid trading a roster player like Hanifin, his age/contract/game I think would fetch a forward in a similar age bracket, with current/future upside. I'm not interested in guys above 30, now with Kadri and a soon to be 30 Huberdeau. We need to supplement those guys with support a level younger but that has proven they can be quality players (main reason I thought of guys like Kyrou and Nylander).

It could all be impossible and a pipe dream but thats my 2 cents.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by jayswin

JayRandom is actually one of my favourite posters and I'm so glad he came back,

Don't butter me up. Harrumph!

but I've noticed you have to understand that his discussion style is to take posters words or thoughts and push them to the extreme of what he can bend them to and "slam" you with where he pushed your words. It's irritating and I try to just manually tone down his response to something more reasonable and friendly and respond from that, lol. Doesn't always work. Think of it like speaking to a lawyer on the opposite side of a court case. It's not friendly, it's adversarial and you need to consider every word typed.

I know I have that habit, and I'm sorry about it. Part of the trouble is, I cut my teeth on Usenet back in the day, which meant spotty moderation or none at all, and frequent wall-to-wall flamewars. This place is Shangri-La by comparison – but there are enough meltdowns and enough flamewars that I never feel quite at home, and I often feel like I have to be adversarial or be mocked right off the board. I apologize for being so abrasive, but I may never really be able to cure it.

That said, I really don't think Hanifin should be traded, for two reasons. First, wing is nowhere near as important a position as defence, and second, the Flames are not as strong on defence as they look. The top six are really solid, but they're one injury away from having to play some really questionable depth players. And we still don't know how Tanev will hold up after his surgery. I hope it's not another Monahan situation, but you never know.

Rather than acquire a big-ticket winger, and then give up even more assets to shed Lucic's cap hit, I'd much prefer to add a cheaper second-line forward like Kessel or Rodrigues and save the team's assets.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Don't butter me up. Harrumph!



I know I have that habit, and I'm sorry about it. Part of the trouble is, I cut my teeth on Usenet back in the day, which meant spotty moderation or none at all, and frequent wall-to-wall flamewars. This place is Shangri-La by comparison – but there are enough meltdowns and enough flamewars that I never feel quite at home, and I often feel like I have to be adversarial or be mocked right off the board. I apologize for being so abrasive, but I may never really be able to cure it.

That said, I really don't think Hanifin should be traded, for two reasons. First, wing is nowhere near as important a position as defence, and second, the Flames are not as strong on defence as they look. The top six are really solid, but they're one injury away from having to play some really questionable depth players. And we still don't know how Tanev will hold up after his surgery. I hope it's not another Monahan situation, but you never know.

Rather than acquire a big-ticket winger, and then give up even more assets to shed Lucic's cap hit, I'd much prefer to add a cheaper second-line forward like Kessel or Rodrigues and save the team's assets.

This makes alot of sense and I respect that outlook. Generally I agree with you about the importance of each position vs. the other.

However when I recommended the idea of trading a D and specifically Hanifin, its not because I value wing over D, its because of who our competition is/how we stack up, the type of player I think Hanifin can fetch (a mid 20 year old top 6) and the addition of a supremely talented player like Weegar.

At the end of the day we are in win now mode. Is that top 6 and specifically that right wing going to serve us well in a dual with Colorado and Edmonton? I don't think so. If our D plays lights out vs. either team, do we have the forward power to beat either Colorado/Edmonton (at this current point)? I'm not sure, its 50/50, unfortunately McDavid is that good and we all know against us the oilers get all the calls. Thus I think we need to close the gap and I don't think Kessel and Rodriguez do that.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Not very realistic though when you consider the cost from a division rival and the cap.

If it brings a Stanley Cup, who cares.

Lindholm/Miller/Kadri/Backlund.

Mikael Backlund is the #4C.

What does Vancouver need to make that happen?

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If it brings a Stanley Cup, who cares.

Lindholm/Miller/Kadri/Backlund.

Mikael Backlund is the #4C.

What does Vancouver need to make that happen?

Whether the trade is realistic who knows, I don't think it is since we'd be dealing with Vancouver.

Whats not realistic is bumping Kadri to 3rd line C and Backlund to 4th line C if this some how happened. Kadri/Miller will be the 2nd line centre, Backlund will be the 3rd line centre. Miller or Kadri would come in and play wing on either line 1 or 2, if this some how occurred.

You don't acquire a player of that skill set and just auto drop people into roles that are way below their skill set/capabilities for the sake of positioning (Backlund to 4th line and Kadri to 3rd). It makes 0 sense.

[Vinny01]

Vancouver has aspirations of getting back to the playoffs so I don’t see them strengthening a division rival unless it is painfully uncomfortable for that rival. Millet is surely a rental so I don’t see it making any sense for the Flames to give up the assets for a 1 year player

[Drunk Uncle]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Don't butter me up. Harrumph!



I know I have that habit, and I'm sorry about it. Part of the trouble is, I cut my teeth on Usenet back in the day, which meant spotty moderation or none at all, and frequent wall-to-wall flamewars. This place is Shangri-La by comparison – but there are enough meltdowns and enough flamewars that I never feel quite at home, and I often feel like I have to be adversarial or be mocked right off the board. I apologize for being so abrasive, but I may never really be able to cure it.

That said, I really don't think Hanifin should be traded, for two reasons. First, wing is nowhere near as important a position as defence, and second, the Flames are not as strong on defence as they look. The top six are really solid, but they're one injury away from having to play some really questionable depth players. And we still don't know how Tanev will hold up after his surgery. I hope it's not another Monahan situation, but you never know.

Rather than acquire a big-ticket winger, and then give up even more assets to shed Lucic's cap hit, I'd much prefer to add a cheaper second-line forward like Kessel or Rodrigues and save the team's assets.

Put me in this camp. I don't think the benefits of trading Hanifin for a winger, or any top 4 d on the team for a winger, outweigh the detriments of losing him. I still think a winger add is required but not at the expense of Hanifin.

[bax]

Which winger is available for Hanifin that will make us better? This keeps getting thrown around, but I haven’t heard a single realistic name mentioned. Especially not a month before the season.

Everyone keeps saying “the Flames have 10 defenseman on one way deals, something has to give!”, but how many of these guys are fringe NHLer’s at best?

Weegar
Hanifin
Andersson
Tanev
Kylington
Zadorov
Meloche
Mackey
Valimaki
Gilbert

I would argue there is very clearly an NHL top 6, 1 spot for an extra (probably Meloche) and then AHL depth.

I don’t see any situation where trading one of the top 4 D makes us a better team.

If the Flames loved Mackey or Valimaki they probably wouldn’t have signed guys like Meloche and Gilbert.

[dammage79]

Still think it's a Valimaki for a FW type trade. But I also suspect that won't happen until sometime in the middle of training camp.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by bax

Which winger is available for Hanifin that will make us better? This keeps getting thrown around, but I haven’t heard a single realistic name mentioned. Especially not a month before the season.

Everyone keeps saying “the Flames have 10 defenseman on one way deals, something has to give!”, but how many of these guys are fringe NHLer’s at best?

Weegar
Hanifin
Andersson
Tanev
Kylington
Zadorov
Meloche
Mackey
Valimaki
Gilbert

I would argue there is very clearly an NHL top 6, 1 spot for an extra (probably Meloche) and then AHL depth.

I don’t see any situation where trading one of the top 4 D makes us a better team.

If the Flames loved Mackey or Valimaki they probably wouldn’t have signed guys like Meloche and Gilbert.

Could it be that some posters don’t understand what a one way deal is and think those bubble players remain on the cap even if they are sent down?

Either way, I agree with those who say that there are very few RWs that would outweigh losing Hanifin. The Flames just created a strong D and now they should whittle it down again?

[iggyloob12]

IF the Flames re-sign Weegar soon, I'd look at trading a D for a top-six winger, but more likely Kylington, who teams might value for his scoring upside and low cap. Hanifin is the better player and I think the D would take too far of a step back without him. That said, it really depends on what wingers are available.

[Mull]

I have never been part of an NHL player contract negotiation but I feel like if Weegar won't sign by Sept, they must be a bridge to far and its time for Brad to accept he is a one year player or try his hand a wizard magic on the trade market.

One concern with getting better then expected value might be that unlike Matthew, Weegar may not care as much as where he plays but want an inflated salary. Matthew's salary wasn't really the concern, making it 'easy' to get a team to trade a king's ransom for him. If the hold up with Weegar is the salary expectation, it makes him harder to trade in a cap constraint market.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by saillias

I don't think it's necessary or efficient to have 6 D who are top 4 quality (which is arguably the state of the d core right now) and that's not counting Valimaki, Mackey, Stone. It makes sense to me. There's only so many minutes to go around. You do get diminishing returns at some point.

That's it exactly. When you have a player like Mackey waiting in the wings, who can play a bottom pairing role for pennies on the dollar comparatively, you are better served to try to add further scoring depth than play a player in a lesser role than they are suited.

If the team moved Kylington + for a forward, you have close to $5M in space to work with - this is a legitimate player and could make much more of an impact on the season than leaving things as they are currently constructed.

[JTech780]

I would love to have Miller, but it isn’t happening. We would have to give up our 2023 1st plus Coronato, and even then I am not sure it gets done. It sounds like they are trying to work out an extension.