I am really curious how many parallels with "Seattle is Dying" I'm going to see in this video.
Spoiler!
I thought there were a lot of parallels, however I liked the Vancouver is dying film a little better because the theme was more focused on attempting to treat and solve addiction issues in addition to better police enforcement of crime rather the focus theme of the 'Seattle is Dying' was about giving the police more leeway to 'clean up the streets' and treatment of addiction and mental health issues were more secondary.
The Following User Says Thank You to Cowboy89 For This Useful Post:
My position on Safe Supply has changed from when it was first announced by our government. Initially, I reasoned that if people were dying due to toxic levels of fentanyl in the drugs they were purchasing from the streets, it was logical to fix that issue by offering addicts clean alternatives. But I've come around to realize that offering more drugs to addicts also isn't a good long term solution. Honestly not sure what the answer is.
The Following User Says Thank You to activeStick For This Useful Post:
Sounds good. To me, boggles the mind that people would look at what is one of the only successful drug addiction/ homeless reduction campaigns on earth and then do whatever we can to make up reasons why we can’t just do that model. Because they’re different and stuff. Or something.
Meanwhile, the current view in Vancouver is…… apparently killing 6 people a day. But damn, let’s not try anything different.
That’s the way it always goes. You can’t look at Portugal’s handling of addiction/homelessness because it’s different!. You can’t look at Denmark’s prison system because it’s different!
Why is it that when we’re solving anything from small to major problems, everyone understands that learning from others is just an obvious step to take, but as soon as the biggest problems arise, it’s “oh no, I don’t know what the solution is, but I know it can’t be found by learning from anyone else because their situation is different!”
There is nothing more useless than the people that don’t know what the solution is and their most valuable retort is “well that’s different!”
The world’s information easier to access than any point in history and people are afraid to learn something. Incredibly sad and why these problems persist.
The Following User Says Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
That’s the way it always goes. You can’t look at Portugal’s handling of addiction/homelessness because it’s different!. You can’t look at Denmark’s prison system because it’s different!
Why is it that when we’re solving anything from small to major problems, everyone understands that learning from others is just an obvious step to take, but as soon as the biggest problems arise, it’s “oh no, I don’t know what the solution is, but I know it can’t be found by learning from anyone else because their situation is different!”
There is nothing more useless than the people that don’t know what the solution is and their most valuable retort is “well that’s different!”
The world’s information easier to access than any point in history and people are afraid to learn something. Incredibly sad and why these problems persist.
Cool. So Pepsi knows the answer. Just copy Portugal and we're done. Problem solved.
Why oh why have we not thought of this?
When are you running for Mayor of Vancouver?
__________________ The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans
If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
My position on Safe Supply has changed from when it was first announced by our government. Initially, I reasoned that if people were dying due to toxic levels of fentanyl in the drugs they were purchasing from the streets, it was logical to fix that issue by offering addicts clean alternatives. But I've come around to realize that offering more drugs to addicts also isn't a good long term solution. Honestly not sure what the answer is.
The upstream determinants of addiction are the most important to address. A part of the solution is a robust and diverse education system that allows for children who come from dysfunctional families, learn the emotional and economic skills to become a functional adult.
Safe supply is only a downstream solution so the social impact is limited. That said, the benefit of which is more than offering a safe supply. It also offers an opportunity for intervention. Without safe injection sites the only intervention is criminal enforcement, which is 1. expensive, 2. not effective.
Cool. So Pepsi knows the answer. Just copy Portugal and we're done. Problem solved.
Why oh why have we not thought of this?
When are you running for Mayor of Vancouver?
The reason why we don't try things like what Portugal has done -- and I don't mean to sh-t on you here -- is because precisely of reactions exactly like yours where the idea is shot down before we even evaluate / understand / try it.
__________________
-James
GO FLAMES GO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
Typical dumb take.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to TorqueDog For This Useful Post:
The reason why we don't try things like what Portugal has done -- and I don't mean to sh-t on you here -- is because precisely of reactions exactly like yours where the idea is shot down before we even evaluate / understand / try it.
No.
If it was that easy it would have been done by now. You are telling me that my exact attitude, and only mine, is shared by roughly 30 million people along the entire West Coast in SF, Portland, Vancouver, LA and Seattle and they're all wrong.
We just need to be Portugal.
Well go round up some Portuguese to solve this problem. Apparently the problem has been answered. What are we waiting for??
__________________ The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans
If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
The reason why we don't try things like what Portugal has done -- and I don't mean to sh-t on you here -- is because precisely of reactions exactly like yours where the idea is shot down before we even evaluate / understand / try it.
Yep. Typical Canadian attitude these days that just seems so frustrating. Why even look into trying something new when the status quo, while abismal, is easier.
To be clear, at first blush, I was against safe injection sites and the thought of "government handing out drugs to addicts"... That said, I also realize the current situation not only doesn't work, but is getting worse, so it's time to try something - anything - different.
It's not as if people haven't evaluated every possible "model" for potential application in Vancouver. The notion that every time someone brings up these types of measures that someone makes a snarky comment and no one bothers to go any further with it is silly. Some steps in what you'd call the "Portugal model" have been implemented. Some that have been implemented have been more successful, others less so. The issue isn't that no one is willing to try anything - you can argue they're too conservative in terms of how far they're willing to go with those sorts of policy experiments, but let's not act like everyone has just thrown their hands up in the air and said "well, nothing we can do, let it all burn".
Quote:
Originally Posted by you&me
That said, I also realize the current situation not only doesn't work, but is getting worse, so it's time to try something - anything - different.
This is a ridiculous attitude towards public policy that thankfully no one would follow. You don't just try anything. There are always a dozen options and you try to figure out what will work best. Usually incrementally.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Cool. So Pepsi knows the answer. Just copy Portugal and we're done. Problem solved.
Why oh why have we not thought of this?
When are you running for Mayor of Vancouver?
lol, no. I don’t know the answer. Which is why I am advocating learning from (not copying) a place that seems to be much closer to something resembling an answer.
How is that even remotely controversial? You think pointing out that Canada isn’t Portugal is any more intellectual or interesting? Cool. Maybe stick to putting numbers in a spreadsheet if you’re going to act this way. Grow up, man.
lol, no. I don’t know the answer. Which is why I am advocating learning from (not copying) a place that seems to be much closer to something resembling an answer.
How is that even remotely controversial? You think pointing out that Canada isn’t Portugal is any more intellectual or interesting? Cool. Maybe stick to putting numbers in a spreadsheet if you’re going to act this way. Grow up, man.
And you're telling me to grow up?
__________________ The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans
If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
The reason why we don't try things like what Portugal has done -- and I don't mean to sh-t on you here -- is because precisely of reactions exactly like yours where the idea is shot down before we even evaluate / understand / try it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
No.
If it was that easy it would have been done by now. You are telling me that my exact attitude, and only mine, is shared by roughly 30 million people along the entire West Coast in SF, Portland, Vancouver, LA and Seattle and they're all wrong.
We just need to be Portugal.
Well go round up some Portuguese to solve this problem. Apparently the problem has been answered. What are we waiting for??
Great advancement of the conversation. Let's just pop this into a logic machine and see what happens:
Spoiler!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorqueDog
The reason why we don't try things like what Portugal has done -- and I don't mean to sh-t on you here -- is because precisely of reactions exactly like yours where the idea is shot down before we even evaluate / understand / try it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
No.
If it was that easy it would have been done by now. You are telling me that my exact attitude, and only mine, is shared by roughly 30 million people along the entire West Coast in SF, Portland, Vancouver, LA and Seattle and they're all wrong.
We just need to be Portugal.
Well go round up some Portuguese to solve this problem. Apparently the problem has been answered. What are we waiting for??
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorqueDog
The reason why we don't try things like what Portugal has done -- and I don't mean to sh-t on you here -- is because precisely of reactions exactly like yours where the idea is shot down before we even evaluate / understand / try it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
No.
If it was that easy it would have been done by now. You are telling me that my exact attitude, and only mine, is shared by roughly 30 million people along the entire West Coast in SF, Portland, Vancouver, LA and Seattle and they're all wrong.
We just need to be Portugal.
Well go round up some Portuguese to solve this problem. Apparently the problem has been answered. What are we waiting for??
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorqueDog
The reason why we don't try things like what Portugal has done -- and I don't mean to sh-t on you here -- is because precisely of reactions exactly like yours where the idea is shot down before we even evaluate / understand / try it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
No.
If it was that easy it would have been done by now. You are telling me that my exact attitude, and only mine, is shared by roughly 30 million people along the entire West Coast in SF, Portland, Vancouver, LA and Seattle and they're all wrong.
We just need to be Portugal.
Well go round up some Portuguese to solve this problem. Apparently the problem has been answered. What are we waiting for??
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorqueDog
The reason why we don't try things like what Portugal has done -- and I don't mean to sh-t on you here -- is because precisely of reactions exactly like yours where the idea is shot down before we even evaluate / understand / try it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
No.
If it was that easy it would have been done by now. You are telling me that my exact attitude, and only mine, is shared by roughly 30 million people along the entire West Coast in SF, Portland, Vancouver, LA and Seattle and they're all wrong.
We just need to be Portugal.
Well go round up some Portuguese to solve this problem. Apparently the problem has been answered. What are we waiting for??
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorqueDog
The reason why we don't try things like what Portugal has done -- and I don't mean to sh-t on you here -- is because precisely of reactions exactly like yours where the idea is shot down before we even evaluate / understand / try it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
No.
If it was that easy it would have been done by now. You are telling me that my exact attitude, and only mine, is shared by roughly 30 million people along the entire West Coast in SF, Portland, Vancouver, LA and Seattle and they're all wrong.
We just need to be Portugal.
Well go round up some Portuguese to solve this problem. Apparently the problem has been answered. What are we waiting for??
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorqueDog
The reason why we don't try things like what Portugal has done -- and I don't mean to sh-t on you here -- is because precisely of reactions exactly like yours where the idea is shot down before we even evaluate / understand / try it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
No.
If it was that easy it would have been done by now. You are telling me that my exact attitude, and only mine, is shared by roughly 30 million people along the entire West Coast in SF, Portland, Vancouver, LA and Seattle and they're all wrong.
We just need to be Portugal.
Well go round up some Portuguese to solve this problem. Apparently the problem has been answered. What are we waiting for??
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorqueDog
The reason why we don't try things like what Portugal has done -- and I don't mean to sh-t on you here -- is because precisely of reactions exactly like yours where the idea is shot down before we even evaluate / understand / try it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
No.
If it was that easy it would have been done by now. You are telling me that my exact attitude, and only mine, is shared by roughly 30 million people along the entire West Coast in SF, Portland, Vancouver, LA and Seattle and they're all wrong.
We just need to be Portugal.
Well go round up some Portuguese to solve this problem. Apparently the problem has been answered. What are we waiting for??
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorqueDog
The reason why we don't try things like what Portugal has done -- and I don't mean to sh-t on you here -- is because precisely of reactions exactly like yours where the idea is shot down before we even evaluate / understand / try it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
No.
If it was that easy it would have been done by now. You are telling me that my exact attitude, and only mine, is shared by roughly 30 million people along the entire West Coast in SF, Portland, Vancouver, LA and Seattle and they're all wrong.
We just need to be Portugal.
Well go round up some Portuguese to solve this problem. Apparently the problem has been answered. What are we waiting for??
I am really curious how many parallels with "Seattle is Dying" I'm going to see in this video.
Spoiler!
An interesting aspect of the west coast homeless problem is that these situations are the product of tremendous amounts of resources, think-tanking, political bravado, coupled with genuine public willpower to be compassionate to the homeless population. Go back 10-20 years and these places all had aspirations to solve homelessness once and for all. Now all that seems to be left is politicians kicking the can down the road until it finally boils over.
I'm trying to learn more about the policies of different candidates in the municipal election before the vote. Curious who anyone more familiar with the candidates thinks has the smartest policy position in relation to these issues of addiction and homelessness.
__________________
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
Misrepresenting something as simple as "let's take more lessons from a successful example" as "Oh! We need to be Portugal, huh?? Let's just COPY Portugal? OK! Just round up some Portuguese people!" comes off petulant and isn't interesting. You didn't even attempt to engage with it honestly.
"Learn from somewhere else" is far from a revolutionary thought and, as Corsi said, some lessons probably have been learned and applied. That's a fair thing to say. But I think it's also fair to question if it's been enough or what, if any, learnings have been implemented and whether they are the right combination for our problem. What isn't really fair, though, is to mock something for being simplistic while pretending the even less intellectual position of "We're not Portugal" is somehow above the same sarcastic mockery. We could just go back and forth like that, if you want? "Wow, cool Locke, we're not Portugal? Really? Thanks, nobody knew that. Please take more time out of your day if that's the kind of knowledge you're dropping on us! OMG Did you guys hear we're NOT Portugal??? Gotta get my passport checked!!!" Fun stuff, right?
I know you're the expert on everything Vancouver has tried to deal with the addiction/homelessness issue and more knowledgeable than actual residents about San Francisco, but maybe you could just share that knowledge instead of doing the reductive sarcasm mockery thing? If you're sitting on this wealth of knowledge, share it.
If you watch the video, it becomes very clear very quickly that we should in fact just literally copy the Portugal model.
I can't understand why we wouldn't, and nobody has explained why we shouldn't, other than they are a different country. Which is true, but not an explanation. Coincidentally, Portugal has human beings in it, and so does Canada, and Portugal had addiction and homeless issues that it devised a strategy to deal with, and Canada has addiction and homeless issues, and fumbles around in the dark. Is the premise that we shouldn't just copy everything Portugal did, based on the fact that we somehow think their people are any different or special or something? Bizarre stance if so, since they wouldn't be different in any of the ways regarding humanity that matter for the problem at hand. People all over the world generally like food, shelter and jobs. That's not really a "unique to Portugal" kind of thing.
Just to be clear, and the video explains it, Vancouver is doing kinda Portugal things, but many not Portugal things. Basically, we need to have levels of enforcement and accountability to addicts. I know, shocking concept.
So, again, after you watch the video which goes into great detail about the problems- and to which mostly just boil down to addiction and drugs if we're honest, why wouldn't we just copy the Portugal model?
And I mean ALL components. Not just some. All of it. Again, they have the only successful model that I am aware of to make significant strides in homeless and addiction.
Why not?
Like, I get the video is an hour in length but the dude who made it pretty much crushes it. Interviews multiple key people and experts in everything from governance, policing, former addicts, rehab centre advocated and even current addicts on the streets and the problems seem a) abundantly clear and b) there are viable legit solutions.
It's actually sadly quite straightforward after watching.
Suspect nobody wants to spend all that political capital because the results won’t show up before the next election. There will obviously be too many naysayers that will simply punish those decision makers at the ballot box.
Like, I get the video is an hour in length but the dude who made it pretty much crushes it. Interviews multiple key people and experts in everything from governance, policing, former addicts, rehab centre advocated and even current addicts on the streets and the problems seem a) abundantly clear and b) there are viable legit solutions.
It's actually sadly quite straightforward after watching.
I actually agree with a lot of what was in the video. There is something worth pointing out about it though and that is the filmmaker, Aaron Gunn, comes with some political baggage.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cowboy89 For This Useful Post:
Because Portugal's demographics are wholly different from Canada's, they dont have vast numbers of residential school survivors effectively excluded from normal participation in the economy the way Canada does, as I explain to every kid that lives in my house, the problem isnt drugs, the problem lies within the person that takes the drugs
The Following User Says Thank You to afc wimbledon For This Useful Post:
