Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Most Indigenous Canadians had adopted Christianity before residential schools were established. And in the period of first contact, most were baptized in adulthood.

Maybe you should go to the next Lac Ste Anne pilgrimage and tell the thousands of Indigenous Catholics gathered that they’re indoctrinated dupes living a sham. No doubt they’ll welcome a white man dispelling their ignorance.

Lets not pretend treating people like savages and calling their language the devils tongue isn't a form of coercion. I'm sure everyone who didn't convert was cast in the fires of hell according to the church leaders of the day.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Most Indigenous Canadians had adopted Christianity before residential schools were established. And in the period of first contact, most were baptized in adulthood.

Maybe you should go to the next Lac Ste Anne pilgrimage and tell the thousands of Indigenous Catholics gathered that they’re indoctrinated dupes living a sham. No doubt they’ll welcome a white man dispelling their ignorance.

I'd like to see a non-church source for this one please. They just gleefully and willingly abandoned their traditional beliefs for Christianity, because it was better? More relatable? Please provide reasons why these natives would have discarded their existing belief system without any influence?

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by stone hands

By definition being religious is being indoctrinated, I dont see how anybody could be upset about being called that lol

The wise benevolent White Man teaching the Indigenous man that his faith is nonsense is kind of the crux of the problem that go us here isn't it?

[stone hands]

U mean the faith the white man brought from europe and told them if they dont convert theyll spend eternity sitting in a lake of fire being tortured? That one?

[stone hands]

I guess a less snarky reply could be to have you understand the definition of indoctrination and tell me where its implying that someone's religion is nonsense

noun
the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

Sure seems like a required aspect of accepting religion to me. Theres no judgement in the statement - faith literally requires you to be uncritical of the religion, otherwise you're a non believer. It has a negative connotation because believing anything uncritically is a clear lapse of rationality I guess, but religion is basically believing in divine magic, which is irrational in the first place,so people know and accept it. So where's the problem in calling all religious people indoctrinated?

[sureLoss]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1408081091546730498

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flacker

I'd like to see a non-church source for this one please. They just gleefully and willingly abandoned their traditional beliefs for Christianity, because it was better? More relatable? Please provide reasons why these natives would have discarded their existing belief system without any influence?

Indigenous faiths in the New World rarely endured for more than a generation after first contact. There was coercion, of course. But to the millions who saw their civilization and way of life collapse overnight, with disease wiping out nine out of ten in their communities and all their rituals proving impotent to stem the tide, it must have seemed clear that their gods had abandoned them.

Humans are adaptable creatures. If a conquerors’ credo seems more powerful, we’ll switch horses mid-race. Look at Islam. In 630 it was an obscure religion confined to the Arabian peninsula. Eventually, it became the faith of the great majority of people in the Middle East and North Africa. There weren’t enough Arabs at the time to impose Islam through coercion alone. Locals saw which way the wind was blowing, and must have also found something appealing and persuasive in the tenets of the religion itself.

People who think religion persists and spreads only through coercion don’t understand human nature and psychology.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Hundreds of prominent news stories were published about residential schools when the report was prepared and released. I had assumed anyone who had any engagement with news and current events at all was already aware of the deaths.

We're all kind of numb to statistical deaths, discovery of bodies in the ground elicits a much more emotional response. I think the process of discovering all the bodies would have a substantial impact on the canadian psyche and hopefully push us towards reconciliation.

Originally Posted by Flacker

I'd like to see a non-church source for this one please. They just gleefully and willingly abandoned their traditional beliefs for Christianity, because it was better? More relatable? Please provide reasons why these natives would have discarded their existing belief system without any influence?

This was pretty common with the spread of christianity, when a foreign culture comes in, easily dominates your culture and enjoy such a technological advantage they seem like gods themselves, it kind of takes the shine off the old gods and old ways.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Most Indigenous Canadians had adopted Christianity before residential schools were established. And in the period of first contact, most were baptized in adulthood.

Maybe you should go to the next Lac Ste Anne pilgrimage and tell the thousands of Indigenous Catholics gathered that they’re indoctrinated dupes living a sham. No doubt they’ll welcome a white man dispelling their ignorance.

It could be reasonably argued all Catholics(and most other religions) are indoctrinated dupes living a sham. No need to single out Indigenous peoples. People may not like to hear that, and it's looked down upon to say that, but sometimes the honest truth needs to be spoken. The essential tenants of Catholic faith are obviously and provably false, such as Adam being the first man.

[troutman]

I was interested to read the Jesuit Diaries in a legal history course:

https://www.cbc.ca/history/EPCONTENTSE1EP2CH5PA3LE.html

In 1615, France insisted that Champlain send missionaries to New France in order to convert the natives.

Fifteen years later, the missionaries of the Society of Jesus arrived, also known as the Jesuits and the "soldiers of Christ". They had had great success in converting pagans in Asia, Africa, and South America. The Society of Jesus now faced a fresh challenge: converting thirty thousand natives in Huronia.

The Jesuits had little success in their evangelization. A shaman engaged them in theological argument, claiming that the Christian God did not live in Canada, and that was why he did not believe in Him. He maintained that native souls might not have been made the same as European ones, that they did not go to the same place after death. Besides, he concluded, who had ever returned from that land beyond death to describe it?

But the missionaries persisted, insisted and sometimes succeeded.
Each soul converted was duly accounted for and faithfully reported to their superior. In Quebec, the superior of the Jesuits kept a diary of what life was like in Huronia. He transformed difficulties into success and the diary was finally published as: Relations of the most remarkable events that have occurred during the mission of the Fathers of the Company of Jesus in New France. Translated into Latin, Italian, and German, the Relations were devoured by a passionately devout readership in Europe.

Pierre Boucher recounted:
"Usually all the savages are well-meaning...They believe in the immortality of the soul and ...that after death, it goes to a beautiful place...They have a number of fables that they tell...They know Gods, they have a great aversion to sorcerers. They are very superstitious, and add faith to their thoughts: this is what gives the most pain to the Jesuit fathers who instruct them."

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/amerbegin/settlement/text5/JesuitRelationsMissions.pdf

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It could be reasonably argued all Catholics(and most other religions) are indoctrinated dupes living a sham. No need to single out Indigenous peoples. People may not like to hear that, and it's looked down upon to say that, but sometimes the honest truth needs to be spoken. The essential tenants of Catholic faith are obviously and provably false, such as Adam being the first man.

Religious indoctrination is simply a geographic lottery.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It could be reasonably argued all Catholics(and most other religions) are indoctrinated dupes living a sham. No need to single out Indigenous peoples. People may not like to hear that, and it's looked down upon to say that, but sometimes the honest truth needs to be spoken. The essential tenants of Catholic faith are obviously and provably false, such as Adam being the first man.

All sorts of things people believe are demonstrably false. The point is it doesn’t take coercion or indoctrination for people to embrace appealing fictions. Humans have psychological needs, and given its ubiquity in every culture in history, it seems obvious that religion addresses many of those needs.

I’d go into the host of emotionally appealing but empirically unsubstantiated beliefs held by people today who don’t consider themselves religious, but that would be derailing. I will say that all of the expressions of shame, acts of collective atonement, and symbols of support Canadians are making over residential schools are unlikely to make any tangible difference in outcomes for indigenous peoples, and instead serve a social function that is religious in all but name.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

All sorts of things people believe are demonstrably false. The point is it doesn’t take coercion or indoctrination for people to embrace appealing fictions. Humans have psychological needs, and given its ubiquity in every culture in history, it seems obvious that religion addresses many of those needs.

I’d go into the host of emotionally appealing but empirically unsubstantiated beliefs held by people today who don’t consider themselves religious, but that would be derailing. I will say that all of the expressions of shame, acts of collective atonement, and symbols of support Canadians are making over residential schools are unlikely to make any tangible difference in outcomes for indigenous peoples, and instead serve a social function that is religious in all but name.

Ha! You are right. We should probably do nothing instead. You don't think Canadians knowing and acknowledging the atrocities committed against them instead a positive step to reconciliation? Because from every Indigenous story I have read, that's a big part of what they want. But hey, Cliff knows best. As always, we should do nothing.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

https://twitter.com/user/status/1408081091546730498

Unreal. In Alberta, didn't we have the most residential schools? I would think that the numbers are going to be extremely disgusting as things are investigated.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Ha! You are right. We should probably do nothing instead. You don't think Canadians knowing and acknowledging the atrocities committed against them instead a positive step to reconciliation? Because from every Indigenous story I have read, that's a big part of what they want. But hey, Cliff knows best. As always, we should do nothing.

Where did I say we should do nothing? But the actions that will help Indigenous Canadians going forward cannot be performed behind a keyboard. Your mistake is thinking speeches, invocations of atonement, coloured ribbons, social media campaigns, and other public rituals are ‘doing something.’ They’re only doing something in the sense that praying for miners trapped in a cave-in is doing something - their purpose is to give solace, solidarity, and a feeling of collective agency to the people carrying out the rituals. Like religion does.

[MacDaddy77]

I think each of these discoveries deserves it's own thread as the news comes available. This latest discovery greatly exceeds the 215 in BC and there will be significantly more to come.

At minimum thread title should be amended each time.

What a dark period in Canada's history, I hope the Catholic Church is taken to task for this.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by stone hands

U mean the faith the white man brought from europe and told them if they dont convert theyll spend eternity sitting in a lake of fire being tortured? That one?

Does it matter what faith it is?

White people spent 500 years trying to coerce non-white people what faith to believe in. Have we not learned our lesson?

Live and let live.

White people in the 21st century telling Indigenous folks that their current faith (be it Christian or otherwise) is a problem, just like it was 100 years ago.

[wireframe]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

I think each of these discoveries deserves it's own thread as the news comes available. This latest discovery greatly exceeds the 215 in BC and there will be significantly more to come.

At minimum thread title should be amended each time.

What a dark period in Canada's history, I hope the Catholic Church is taken to task for this.

This isn't a catholic church problem. It's a government of Canada problem. There were just as many schools run by other Christian denominations and some run directly by the government. The reports from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission make it very clear that the government is more responsible for the tragedies at these schools than the churches because they didn't fund or regulate the schools appropriately.

I'm not trying to pick on you specifically. A lot of people are blaming the Catholic church. And I'm also not a fan of the church.

[MacDaddy77]

^ Fair point, the government of Canada developed the residential school system and implemented it. Personally I place equal blame on both parties as the religious denominations were in charge of the daily abuse.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Does it matter what faith it is?

White people spent 500 years trying to coerce non-white people what faith to believe in. Have we not learned our lesson?

Live and let live.

White people in the 21st century telling Indigenous folks that their current faith (be it Christian or otherwise) is a problem, just like it was 100 years ago.

no, it really doesnt matter what faith it is. nor does it matter what race you are - if you're religious, you're indoctrinated, full stop. doesnt matter if you're white, indigenous, vietnamese, sudanese, whatever