[News] Bill Peters resigns as head coach. No longer part of Flames org. Ward interim HC

[Flamenspiel]

I am curious to see how the new lines work out after all the player input, its quite possible that Johnny requested Lucic on his line. On ice abuse continues to be part of the game. Dube was really doing well on that line.

[Red Slinger]

I think that style of coaching can work only if you have a strong leadership group among the players. Otherwise, you end up in a situation like the party boys in Edmonton during the Eakins era.

I'd like to think the Flames have good leadership with Gio, Backlund, Lucic, Hamonic and others. However, the teams that really seem to thrive are those whose best players are also the best leaders. I'm not sure that the case with the Flames other than Gio.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ I am curious what Aliu’s case would be. How “derailed” was his career? He was in the NHL 2 years after the Peters incident and was never a 100 percent sure thing.

He was recognized on that NHL central scouting form as having very good to excellent skills in certain areas with average marks for work ethic and discipline. High marks on skills and low marks in competitiveness and defensive play.

Some highlights:
Player type: power forward
Pro potential: 6 - Good chance to play in NHL. Needs time to develop
Pro ranking - potential role should he make the NHL: 8. 1st line / top 2 D
Deserves consideration as one of the best prospects in these areas: Fighting, shot

Skating was generally ranked as very good.
Same with puck skills
Work ethic average, consistency poor
Average marks for back checking and defensive reliability.

I think that the NHL has changed a bit between then and now. More emphasis on speed and less on fighting. To me, the issues of consistency and work ethic have a lot to do with bubble players sticking.

Aliu did make the NHL, he showed flashes, and was given a fair shot in Calgary. He has bounced around afterwards, and a few times since then has played for 3 teams in one year.

Different people have different paths to the NHL. Some draftees don’t make it but he did. He was a feel good story when he made it, but he didn’t stick.

Being 30 now, he was, what, 22 or 23 when he made it? That is on track time wise for a lot of kids who get their first look.

He got into his first NHL games with Calgary 2 seasons after the Peters incident, as far as I can tell.

I know that there is a significant jump in earning potential between minor leagues to NHL, where the minimum wage of 695 K at the time (or whatever) is life changing.

Lawsuits in Canada as far as I understand generally involve damages that can be demonstrated.

I probably have no idea what they are based on in the US.

I guess my question is if he is suing anyone, be it an organization or a league, how he intends to demonstrate on the balance of probability that someone stopped him from making x dollars.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...047292010.html

Akim Aliu was ranked 8th in goals for the Rockford IceDogs, and was top goal D scorer on the team, while only playing half the games at the age of 20. That deserves a demotion to the ECHL according to Bill Peters.

Akim has a very strong discrimination case. I think this has more to do with his demotion then the actual room incident which was confirmation of prejudice. We only heard the tweet, and the rest was after consulting with lawyers.

We can not say if he ultimately would have made a career in the NHL as scenarios changed, but he clearly was not belonging in the ECHL when he was demoted. Coupled with the hazing incident, this would have certainly taken a toll.

[Resolute 14]

Aliu might have at the time, but I would have to assume that, after a decade, the statute of limitations to file a claim has long since passed.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Firebot

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...047292010.html

Akim Aliu was ranked 8th in goals for the Rockford IceDogs, and was top goal D scorer on the team, while only playing half the games at the age of 20. That deserves a demotion to the ECHL according to Bill Peters.

Akim has a very strong discrimination case. I think this has more to do with his demotion then the actual room incident which was confirmation of prejudice. We only heard the tweet, and the rest was after consulting with lawyers.

We can not say if he ultimately would have made a career in the NHL as scenarios changed, but he clearly was not belonging in the ECHL when he was demoted. Coupled with the hazing incident, this would have certainly taken a toll.

Top D goal scorer? He was a winger with them as far as I am aware. Perhaps hockeydb inherited his player profile position in its table?

Again, he was in the NHL 2 years later.

Aliu’s 18 points in 48 pro rate to ~28 over 80.

Kyle Greentree was on the team as well. He got 45 points in 64 games.
He got all of 4 games in the NHL. 2 with Philly, 2 with the Flames

Brian Connelly and Peter McArthur had better scoring and never saw the NHL

Nobody is saying Peters is in the right. But this is a guy who 6 times over a 7 year span suited up for three teams in a season.

Again, the Flames gave Aliu two years of reasonable stability, and he was in the NHL twice with them, right in his early twenties. He had a chance, lived his dream of playing in the NHL, didn’t stick and then carried on with the pattern of 3 teams per season more often than not.

About belonging in the ECHL, well, he was sent down the following year as well. Did he not belong there again, in your opinion?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Top D goal scorer? He was a winger with them as far as I am aware. Perhaps hockeydb inherited his player profile position in its table?

Again, he was in the NHL 2 years later.

Aliu’s 18 points in 48 pro rate to ~28 over 80.

Kyle Greentree was on the team as well. He got 45 points in 64 games.
He got all of 4 games in the NHL. 2 with Philly, 2 with the Flames

Brian Connelly and Peter McArthur had better scoring and never saw the NHL

Nobody is saying Peters is in the right. But this is a guy who 6 times over a 7 year span suited up for three teams in a season.

Again, the Flames gave Aliu two years of reasonable stability, and he was in the NHL twice with them, right in his early twenties. He had a chance, lived his dream of playing in the NHL, didn’t stick and then carried on with the pattern of 3 teams per season more often than not.

About belonging in the ECHL, well, he was sent down the following year as well. Did he not belong there again, in your opinion?

I'm not sure when Aliu made the switch to wing. That said, it's not as simple as you are making it out to be. Sports careers aren't always on a conventional arc. The argument will be that the early demotion set of a chain of events, gave him a bad rep, etc. And the time in the ECHL stunted his progression or something. On the flip side, I suspect the hazing incident and the effect on his draft position and outlook on life had an even greater impact.

Damages are not a 100% proposition in these cases especially in the US where juries are common and unpredictable. If he sued (and if he got past the limitations issue), there would be all kinds of expert analysis on average careers, impact of demotions, etc.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Sounds like Geoff Ward is the Billy Bean equivalent of coaches.

Doing something totally new and different. There is evidence that shows leaders who empower their employees achieve better results. Let's wait and see if you apply that to hockey.

Brian Burke also chatted about Geoff Ward this AM on the Morning Show:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/boomer-...ichs-workload/

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'm not sure when Aliu made the switch to wing. That said, it's not as simple as you are making it out to be. Sports careers aren't always on a conventional arc. The argument will be that the early demotion set of a chain of events, gave him a bad rep, etc. And the time in the ECHL stunted his progression or something. On the flip side, I suspect the hazing incident and the effect on his draft position and outlook on life had an even greater impact.

Damages are not a 100% proposition in these cases especially in the US where juries are common and unpredictable. If he sued (and if he got past the limitations issue), there would be all kinds of expert analysis on average careers, impact of demotions, etc.

Well, I never said it was simple.

I just look at it and see he spent 13 games in the ECHL after 48 in the AHL
Then the next season he was in a new organization, spent 59 games in the AHL on two different AHL teams and 16 in the ECHL.

He is generally around a point per game in the ECHL, so likely ready for the AHL. In the AHL, many stops, he is in the .2-.3 point per game range. Why wouldn’t a guy with that limited output be a candidate for the ECHL? Seems reasonable

Four more ECHL teams in the mix between 2014-15 and last year.

Let’s put it this way

If I had to choose between two narratives:
a) he is a fringe player that showed flashes of promise, had stints with 7 clubs in the ECHL over ~10 years, was ok in the AHL but bounced around and got a couple of sniffs with the Flames.
b) the demotion by Peters (who has not had any public say as to why he was demoted) and that 13 game stint somehow set the tone for the 21 (!) subsequent teams that he bounced between in the following decade.

I personally do not like what Peters did but have trouble choosing narrative b) over narrative a)

And I get it, US juries can give crazy awards and why not go for it, if that’s what he does. But I just don’t see anything from the player that suggests he was a sure fire NHLer, which is really the only level where you make could make the amount of money worth suing for

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Well, I never said it was simple.

I just look at it and see he spent 13 games in the ECHL after 48 in the AHL
Then the next season he was in a new organization, spent 59 games in the AHL on two different AHL teams and 16 in the ECHL.

He is generally around a point per game in the ECHL, so likely ready for the AHL. In the AHL, many stops, he is in the .2-.3 point per game range. Why wouldn’t a guy with that limited output be a candidate for the ECHL? Seems reasonable

Four more ECHL teams in the mix between 2014-15 and last year.

Let’s put it this way

If I had to choose between two narratives:
a) he is a fringe player that showed flashes of promise, had stints with 7 clubs in the ECHL over ~10 years, was ok in the AHL but bounced around and got a couple of sniffs with the Flames.
b) the demotion by Peters (who has not had any public say as to why he was demoted) and that 13 game stint somehow set the tone for the 21 (!) subsequent teams that he bounced between in the following decade.

I personally do not like what Peters did but have trouble choosing narrative b) over narrative a)

And I get it, US juries can give crazy awards and why not go for it, if that’s what he does. But I just don’t see anything from the player that suggests he was a sure fire NHLer, which is really the only level where you make could make the amount of money worth suing for

Except it's not a or b as a zero sum game. It's how much did b contribute to a?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Except it's not a or b as a zero sum game. It's how much did b contribute to a?

When people talk about mental gymnastics, this is an example.

I think the 10 years body of work tells a consistent story, which is the most likely one.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

When people talk about mental gymnastics, this is an example.

I think the 10 years body of work tells a consistent story, which is the most likely one.

It's not mental gymnastics because you are assuming that there's just this history to look at as evidence. It won't be the case. There will be his own evidence. There would be expert psychological evidence based on actual examinations. There would be evidence from experts on sports careers. This is no more difficult than any case for damages due to psychological harm.

All that said, I don't even know if he's looking at a lawsuit as opposed to having lawyers to help him work with the NHL on a deal to improve the issue going forward, in which he's a participant (probably for compensation).

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's not mental gymnastics because you are assuming that there's just this history to look at as evidence. It won't be the case. There will be his own evidence. There would be expert psychological evidence based on actual examinations. There would be evidence from experts on sports careers. This is no more difficult than any case for damages due to psychological harm.

All that said, I don't even know if he's looking at a lawsuit as opposed to having lawyers to help him work with the NHL on a deal to improve the issue going forward, in which he's a participant (probably for compensation).

I am not sure what you are arguing. I didn’t make the assumption you assert, but I certainly point to his record as data to be considered as evidential of his ceiling.

My basic musing way back was if he were to make a case that his career was derailed, how he could actually make that case. Throw all of the experts at it that you like, the best you can do is say *maybe* things could have turned out better, but you still can’t outline with a reasonable degree of probability at all what the different outcome would have been, what magical ceiling he might have had beyond what he accomplished.

So yes, imagining a substantially different outcome I believe does take mental gymnastics.

If he was demoted and never got a sniff of the AHL again, that’s one thing, but he caught on with another organization and was in the NHL just 2 years later. He had a chance very early in his career.

Consistency, work ethic and discipline were identified by central scouting as concerns.

As mentioned, I wondered how he could make a case, on the balance of probability, as to what quantifiable damages he sustained, and nothing I have seen establishes that.

Like you say, he may not be pursuing a lawsuit, and I do hope that his angle is to be a change agent to some extent, for the better.

[Strange Brew]

Why exactly do we care whether Aliu is able to gain some financial benefit from what happened? It doesn't change what happened and how wrong it was.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Why exactly do we care whether Aliu is able to gain some financial benefit from what happened? It doesn't change what happened and how wrong it was.

I don’t really care too much at all what he does.
And nobody disagrees that Peters did wrong things.

But he did hire a second lawyer in the US, and some people reasonably wonder what his plans are.

Does he plan to sue any of the leagues or organizations?
If so, on what grounds?
What would you reasonably expect he could make a case for?

Being that this is a discussion board, it seems like, you know, something to discuss.

Would a lawsuit have merit?

Do you feel like there is a reason not to discuss it?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t really care too much at all what he does.
And nobody disagrees that Peters did wrong things.

But he did hire a second lawyer in the US, and some people reasonably wonder what his plans are.

Does he plan to sue any of the leagues or organizations?
If so, on what grounds?
What would you reasonably expect he could make a case for?

Being that this is a discussion board, it seems like, you know, something to discuss.

Would a lawsuit have merit?

Do you feel like there is a reason not to discuss it?

Would you say that by hiring a second lawyer he's being uppity?

[VladtheImpaler]

Well, I think it is fairly easy to connect the dots here... He is going to allege that someone employed by a NHL team ruined his career out of spite/racism, that the NHL organization in question (CHI) is responsible at law for the actions of its employee, and the NHL as an organization is also responsible for creating a climate ("hostile work environment") where racism, psychological abuse and "spite" where allowed to exist and flourish. Aliu is going to claim that he, as a result of all this wrongdoing, did not have a NHL career where he would have earned $x million, even though he was talented enough to do so... I expect this would never get to court and the Black Hawks/NHL will pay him a fairly modest settlement and we will hear no more of this. Just a guess.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Would you say that by hiring a second lawyer he's being uppity?

Hadn’t crossed my mind

Would you?

[FlamesAddiction]

Working for an abusive employer can definitely be career derailing in any industry. If they make you feel worthless, you aren't going to have the confidence to perform your best.

Aliu had some great attributes and I find it very conceivable that he was ruined by an abusive coach and a system that enabled him. At the very least, no one will ever know, and that has to be frustrating for him.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

But he did hire a second lawyer in the US, and some people reasonably wonder what his plans are.

I mean... I’ve mentioned this before. But I’m sure the lawyer made initial contact, and in that case we definitely know what his (the lawyers) plans are.

But I don’t see anything wrong with that. Fight for what you think you are owed.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Working for an abusive employer can definitely be career derailing in any industry. If they make you feel worthless, you aren't going to have the confidence to perform your best.

Aliu had some great attributes and I find it very conceivable that he was ruined by an abusive coach and a system that enabled him. At the very least, no one will ever know, and that has to be frustrating for him.

Well it wasn’t a sustained situation. He wasn’t stuck with that employer and situation, grinding him down. Got out of it pretty fast, actually. Then had 21 more employers in the next decade.

In 2 short years he got in with a stable quality organization, and made it to the NHL.

Do you really think he was frustrated when he played with the Flames and got his first NHL goal?

That’s a lot of positive within the first two years of his career being derailed