Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The fact that its even debatable (kinda I think you are way off) looking back with hindsight and making the best possible pick the Flames could have made just shows how good of a deal it was. Calgary likely doesn't choose him

Anyway we could go on and on...

Difficult to know this but agreed this could go on.

[savemedrzaius]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I could be wrong because you know I haven't asked him but I don't think he does trade Barzal for Hamilton. I think Barzal is pretty much untouchable.

Nevermind

[Anduril]

If we're doing hypotheticals, I mean with that pick having the likes of Boeser riding shotgun next to Gaudreau and Monahan wouldn't a bad sight.

[Ryan Coke]

I take Barzal for Hamilton every day.

Hamiltons good, but he isn’t as good as Barzal appears he will be.

[blender]

Interesting debate about Barzal VS Hamilton.
I think the difference between a 1c and 1d is negligible. The two most valuable positions,no doubt. I know if I was running a team I don't think I trade either of those players. Pretty much a saw off. Would like to see another season and a half out of Barzal before making a final call. He is just a rookie.

[ricosuave]

Barzal for Gaudreau

[Hackey]

The trade was never Hamilton for Barzal though. The value of a 15th overall pick is definitely not Barzal. Using hindsight to judge the trade is foolish. Senyshyn is who was actually picked at 15 and in that scenario Hamilton is an absolute steal and it's not even debatable.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Hackey

The trade was never Hamilton for Barzal though. The value of a 15th overall pick is definitely not Barzal. Using hindsight to judge the trade is foolish. Senyshyn is who was actually picked at 15 and in that scenario Hamilton is an absolute steal and it's not even debatable.

Still OK to debate their relative value though. They are linked by that trade, regardless of the outcome, and it is a worthwhile debate as to the value of position players in today's NHL

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Hackey

The trade was never Hamilton for Barzal though. The value of a 15th overall pick is definitely not Barzal. Using hindsight to judge the trade is foolish. Senyshyn is who was actually picked at 15 and in that scenario Hamilton is an absolute steal and it's not even debatable.

Senyshyn and the other Bruins picks were all head-scratchers at the time, all reaches. In the next eight picks, the following players were taken: Barzal, Connor, Chabot, Svechnikov, Boeser.

It was a remarkably deep draft. Whether the scouts at the time recognized it or not is hard to say as a fan. Still, it's not a matter of hindsight choosing the best player at that point in the draft - there were a bunch of guys who look like they're going to be difference-makers in the NHL.

As for Hamilton, I don't see a #1. To me, a #1 is a guy you're comfortable putting out in all situations, who doesn't need to be protected. Hamilton needs to be protected. He is not used in all situations. He's a very good skater with great offensive instincts and a knack for getting the puck through to the net. He'll probably be in the top 4 or 5 d-men in goal-scoring for a long time. But his play without the puck does not inspire confidence,. There's a reason he wasn't chosen for Team North America at the World Cup. I've seen a couple projections for Olympic Team Canada 2022, and Hamilton is nowhere to be seen. He has to get a lot better at decision-making without the puck, which can be Phaneuf-esque at times, before he'll be a true elite defenceman, IMHO.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I take Barzal for Hamilton every day.

Hamiltons good, but he isn’t as good as Barzal appears he will be.

Most teams would disagree. Barzal would have to keep up this pace for the rest of his career to be in the same sentence with Hamilton who is on pace to have a very good career with 400+ games played already at 24 years old and pace for well over 500 points in his career.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Senyshyn and the other Bruins picks were all head-scratchers at the time, all reaches. In the next eight picks, the following players were taken: Barzal, Connor, Chabot, Svechnikov, Boeser.

It was a remarkably deep draft. Whether the scouts at the time recognized it or not is hard to say as a fan. Still, it's not a matter of hindsight choosing the best player at that point in the draft - there were a bunch of guys who look like they're going to be difference-makers in the NHL.

Makes it even more amazing that Boston is as good as they are. Lost Hamilton, then absolutely blew it at a draft where they loaded up on three first rounders. Imagine if they excelled at that draft? Wow.

[dino7c]

I think people are ovely down on Flames players because of their poor record this season. Dougie has incredible numbers/consistentcy for his age.

Islanders have JT and Barzal at center...and have 66 points.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I think people are ovely down on Flames players because of their poor record this season. Dougie has incredible numbers/consistentcy for his age.

Islanders have JT and Barzal at center...and have 66 points.

Yep despite underachieving this season there's still a lot to like about some of the young players on the Flames roster and Hamilton is at the front of the line as it's not common to see such consistent 40+ point production out of a young defensman like this and Flames fans have taken him for granted.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I think people are ovely down on Flames players because of their poor record this season. Dougie has incredible numbers/consistentcy for his age.

There's more to hockey than numbers. I don't know if I watch the same games as other people here, because the Hamilton I see is often a gong show in his own end.

A fundamental problem with the Flames is that three of their core players - Gaudreau, Monahan, and Hamilton - are poor without the puck. Elite teams rely on elite two-way players to carry the mail.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Most teams would disagree. Barzal would have to keep up this pace for the rest of his career to be in the same sentence with Hamilton who is on pace to have a very good career with 400+ games played already at 24 years old and pace for well over 500 points in his career.

Barzal has the talent to win the art ross trophy one day. He's one of the best skaters I've ever seen. I'd piggyback Dougie all the way to Long Island if they'd accept that trade.

[RoughRiderRowdy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There's more to hockey than numbers. I don't know if I watch the same games as other people here, because the Hamilton I see is often a gong show in his own end.

A fundamental problem with the Flames is that three of their core players - Gaudreau, Monahan, and Hamilton - are poor without the puck. Elite teams rely on elite two-way players to carry the mail.

Agreed, gaudreau is a liability without the puck

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by icecube

Barzal has the talent to win the art ross trophy one day. He's one of the best skaters I've ever seen. I'd piggyback Dougie all the way to Long Island if they'd accept that trade.

Art ross? I will believe it when I see it...Dougie has actually received norris votes.

As far as a gong show in his own end...him and Gio have some of the the best defensive and possession stats of any pair in the league. D men that play half the game are gonna get scored on.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Most teams would disagree. Barzal would have to keep up this pace for the rest of his career to be in the same sentence with Hamilton who is on pace to have a very good career with 400+ games played already at 24 years old and pace for well over 500 points in his career.

I disagree that most teams disagree. But now that we’ve gotten nowhere in predicting what real GM’s actually think....

Cliff outlined well my thoughts on Hamilton. And I have no interest in ragging on Hamilton, he is a good complimentary piece, but he hasn’t shown #1 D yet. Maybe that’ll change, but I’m not seeing it yet.

It’s true that Barzal is only a rookie, Hamilton has shown what he is for longer. But of course that cuts both ways...it looks like Barzal has a good chance to develop into a number 1 center, and who knows where his ceiling is. We’ve got a better handle on what Hamilton is.

Obvious people evaluate players differently, and points are a good thing. And no doubt Hamilton has a lot of value. But he is not a top D in the league.

[monkeyman]

I think BT's biggest weakness is in evaluating talent. All of his big moves involve established players. He doesn't have the ability to find us a diamond in the rough type player.
This means, he's going to pay a higher cost for older, higher contract players to fill holes. he's never going to pluck a low cost, low contract, yet to emerge player from another team. Calgary will continue to divest themselves of prospects and draft picks to get older, less skilled, and more contract restrained.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I disagree that most teams disagree. But now that we’ve gotten nowhere in predicting what real GM’s actually think....

Cliff outlined well my thoughts on Hamilton. And I have no interest in ragging on Hamilton, he is a good complimentary piece, but he hasn’t shown #1 D yet. Maybe that’ll change, but I’m not seeing it yet.

It’s true that Barzal is only a rookie, Hamilton has shown what he is for longer. But of course that cuts both ways...it looks like Barzal has a good chance to develop into a number 1 center, and who knows where his ceiling is. We’ve got a better handle on what Hamilton is.

Obvious people evaluate players differently, and points are a good thing. And no doubt Hamilton has a lot of value. But he is not a top D in the league.

+8 on a team with a -10 differential. One of the top possession players in the league

9th in Norris voting at 23, not a #1?

Unbiased (honestly biased against us) media thought he was the 9th best Dman in the league last season. 30 team league.