Would you support Rainbow on Hockey Unis for Sochi?

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

you outright said you knew Russians were scum before this. So nice try, I'm just happy you slipped and showed what I already expected.

He was clearly speaking in terms of "this" being "this thread".

Jesus Beef, you are NOT one to ridicule people on a misunderstanding, or should we go back to calling you a bigot and a homophobe?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

you outright said you knew Russians were scum before this. So nice try, I'm just happy you slipped and showed what I already expected.

Aww you're cute. Reading in context would certainly help you out here.

There have been many highly questionable and pretty scummy moves by Russian leadership recently, but that's a corrupt government so I never really placed too much blame on the people. What troubles me here is that the people are seemingly big supporters of this law. Now whether that's entirely their fault is perhaps questionable, after all it's not exactly a country where the average person is very educated, so perhaps I'm being a bit too harsh, but I don't really have much inclination to show compassion to people who support laws like this.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

If you're not comfortable stating the reasons of your xenophobia and disdain towards everything Russia before this law came out, it's OK.

I think you misunderstood him. To me it sounded like he already knew that Russia was a nation comprised largely of bigots as a result of being aware, prior to this thread existing, of attitudes towards gays and support for this law among the Russian population.

I was also aware of the numbers and the general popular sentiment in Russia, so I didn't need this thread to confirm my views. I'd also read quite a bit of forum-style commentary from Russian people on other boards talking about why they thought this law was just peachy and entirely reasonable so Pointman's obtuse nonsense wasn't entirely new (though he took it to the next level here).

Basically, there are some enlightened Russians who support the LGBT community. They are a minority, though. The vast majority of people in that country are apparently bigoted, crappy excuses for human beings.

Originally Posted by strombad

Jesus Beef, you are NOT one to ridicule people on a misunderstanding, or should we go back to calling you a bigot and a homophobe?

Given his dogged support for the perspective that it's some form of moral imperialism to judge other societies whose standards of right and wrong differ from ours, it wouldn't surprise. Homophobes these days, being on the wrong side of every argument, attempt to wage proxy battles.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by valo403

What troubles me here is that the people are seemingly big supporters of this law. Now whether that's entirely their fault is perhaps questionable, after all it's not exactly a country where the average person is very educated, so perhaps I'm being a bit too harsh, but I don't really have much inclination to show compassion to people who support laws like this.

No. Screw this. There is no room for tolerance and understanding and bringing people along slowly to say "see, you don't need to fear and hate and marginalize everyone who's different from you, we can all live side by side with our differences". People are being tortured and killed and this is supposedly a developed nation. The Russian people are responsible, each individually, for his or her own perspective, values and morality. If they have come to the conclusion that homosexuality is aberrant, wrong, less than, or anything similar, I have no patience for that and there is no justification.

I'll draw the analogy again: regardless of whether you were raised in South Africa under Apartheid, if you were a supporter of Apartheid, you were a racist, and by the way, f*** you. The same goes here.

[normtwofinger]

Homework? Here you go.

Originally Posted by valo403

Sort of, mostly I'd just like the world to know that Russia, and apparently most Russians, are scum. I already knew that, but this has really reinforced it. Russia has made an amazing decline from one of the worlds greatest cultures to a pathetic nation.

I'm calling a spade a spade. That is a racist and discriminating comment. You can't debate your way out of that.

[MolsonInBothHands]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

No. Screw this. There is no room for tolerance and understanding and bringing people along slowly to say "see, you don't need to fear and hate and marginalize everyone who's different from you, we can all live side by side with our differences". People are being tortured and killed and this is supposedly a developed nation. The Russian people are responsible, each individually, for his or her own perspective, values and morality. If they have come to the conclusion that homosexuality is aberrant, wrong, less than, or anything similar, I have no patience for that and there is no justification.

I'll draw the analogy again: regardless of whether you were raised in South Africa under Apartheid, if you were a supporter of Apartheid, you were a racist, and by the way, f*** you. The same goes here.

See, it is this jihadist, militant form of delivering your message (and valo's 'prejudiced statement' - yes I understand valo's context,now) that will cost you momentum in this discussion. It doesn't matter how morally correct your position is, if you deliver like an a$$hole, the response will be in kind. Whether you like it or not, this message, in IMO does have to be delivered with a softer touch. Otherwise, you will get responses like Pointman's. At this point he isn't even really listening anymore.

For the record, I would have no problem with the patches, but if this is as important as you convey, a boycott is the more appropriate response.

Carry on...

[valo403]

Originally Posted by normtwofinger

Homework? Here you go.



I'm calling a spade a spade. That is a racist and discriminating comment. You can't debate your way out of that.

Again, try reading in context. Those Russians who support this law are scum. Same goes for anyone else who supports this law. I feel sorry for those Russians who are against this law, as it seems they have very little ability to effect change.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

See, it is this jihadist, militant form of delivering your message (and valo's 'prejudiced statement' - yes I understand valo's context,now) that will cost you momentum in this discussion. It doesn't matter how morally correct your position is, if you deliver like an a$$hole, the response will be in kind. Whether you like it or not, this message, in IMO does have to be delivered with a softer touch. Otherwise, you will get responses like Pointman's. At this point he isn't even really listening anymore.

For the record, I would have no problem with the patches, but if this is as important as you convey, a boycott is the more appropriate response.

Carry on...

I go back and forth on this. I certainly see your point, and it definitely is a legitimate one, but sometimes I feel like a more forceful response is needed. Honestly if this was more than my venting of anger towards this law on a message board I'd likely be more tactful, but I'm not sure I'd dial it back too far.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

If we use the United States average percentage of gay population then there are about 24 gay NHLers.

Enough to make a whole team.

But that's a big "if". I wouldn't be surprised if homophobia in hockey causes gays to quit at all levels, and thus there are none in the NHL - particularly given that NHLers today had to develop earlier, when homophobia was stronger.

[trublmaker]

Originally Posted by strombad

Sorry I was aware that I wasn't allowed to say what I thought. I suppose this thread should have been locked as soon as you said what you had to say.

See the value?

Sure thing bud

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

See, it is this jihadist, militant form of delivering your message (and valo's 'prejudiced statement' - yes I understand valo's context,now) that will cost you momentum in this discussion. It doesn't matter how morally correct your position is, if you deliver like an a$$hole, the response will be in kind. Whether you like it or not, this message, in IMO does have to be delivered with a softer touch. Otherwise, you will get responses like Pointman's. At this point he isn't even really listening anymore.

I'm not even sure what "momentum in the discussion" actually means. I don't want to associate with people who share this viewpoint, so it really doesn't matter to me if they think I'm an ####### for pointing out their massive shortcomings as human beings. I don't, personally, have the patience in this context to facilitate the re-education of people who have the potential openmindedness to be re-educated; if I hear this kind of bigotry in person I need to go into another room or lose my cool. So it's a moot point. I'm not emotionally equipped to take that tack here.

I appreciate the viewpoint (Patrick Burke swears by it) that people need to be given a chance to see things from a different perspective than perhaps the one they were originally taught and have grown comfortable with. There's room for that. But there's also the problem that the person on the other side of it hears that measured, patient approach and intuitively responds with the assumption that, "oh, this person is trying to bring me around to their way of thinking which is different from my way of thinking. Maybe I'll consider their way of looking at things". That sounds good, but it misrepresents the landscape of the discussion. The reality is, the Patrick Burkes of the world are attempting to get you to abandon your downright awful, abhorrent view of the world. It's not a matter of differing, nuanced moral perspectives; the homophobic perspective is just... evil.

Those who are able and willing to patiently explain and illustrate why bigots are wrong, and thereby perhaps rescue from ignorance the small proportion of the bigot population who are simply wrongheaded and can be shown their error, are all well and good. But there needs to be a constant and firm reminder that there's a clear right and wrong here. Personally, I do not believe this battle is ultimately won when the socially enlightened convince the backwards and ignorant; it's won when through demographics the backwards and ignorant gradually go extinct. To that end, making it absolutely clear to everyone from day one that bigoted viewpoints are utterly unacceptable, wrong, and will result in you being shunned and looked down upon will limit the recruitment of new bigots and hasten the departure of the rapidly aging ones (who will hopefully be shamed into silence wherever possible).

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

It's a dodge because you didn't answer my initial question in post 628.
The part in bold specifically.
If you're not comfortable stating the reasons of your xenophobia and disdain towards everything Russia before this law came out, it's OK. You really don't have to. I don't want to derail this thread much further, I just wanted to clarify why it was a dodge on your part.

Just cuz you are calling out posts. The answer to your question was clearly laid out in post 632. You even quoted the post in your reply.

Valo said that this isn't a new discussion. Media, reddit, etc have all been discussing this new law and Russia's human rights issues for a long time. I've had a few different discussions about this and other reports about the corruption in other areas connected to Russia hosting the Olympics. They are so far over budget that they have overshadowed every previous Olympics to date and spending 25% more than China.

The working conditions are apparently pretty horrible and the workers are not only being given very low wages but they are not even being paid ontime. They are using vast amounts of untrained migrant labour which poses its own potential problems with regard to the quality of their work.

Apparently there was even some controversy over picking Sochi as the host city as it is not actually a very good location for the winter olympics, which is absurd considering how much winter Russia gets. However, with the reputation everyone seems to share about Russian winters, I am sure it will be more than cold enough.

What's interesting, and is somewhat connected to my last post, is that Russia is also hosting the G20 summit this week. The Human Rights Watch put out an article about it. It will be interesting to hear if anything related to this topic comes out of the summit.

[JobHopper]

What about just have the athletes that want to carry a rainbow flag during the opening ceremonies when they have the athlete's parade, would get the point across to show support that way.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by JobHopper

What about just have the athletes that want to carry a rainbow flag during the opening ceremonies when they have the athlete's parade, would get the point across to show support that way.

I'm pretty sure the Olympics have rules about what each nation is allowed to bring in for the opening ceremony (only allowed national flags). It was discussed earlier in this thread but I am not going to try to dig up the post.

[MolsonInBothHands]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

I'm not even sure what "momentum in the discussion" actually means. I don't want to associate with people who share this viewpoint, so it really doesn't matter to me if they think I'm an ####### for pointing out their massive shortcomings as human beings. I don't, personally, have the patience in this context to facilitate the re-education of people who have the potential openmindedness to be re-educated; if I hear this kind of bigotry in person I need to go into another room or lose my cool. So it's a moot point. I'm not emotionally equipped to take that tack here.

I appreciate the viewpoint (Patrick Burke swears by it) that people need to be given a chance to see things from a different perspective than perhaps the one they were originally taught and have grown comfortable with. There's room for that. But there's also the problem that the person on the other side of it hears that measured, patient approach and intuitively responds with the assumption that, "oh, this person is trying to bring me around to their way of thinking which is different from my way of thinking. Maybe I'll consider their way of looking at things". That sounds good, but it misrepresents the landscape of the discussion. The reality is, the Patrick Burkes of the world are attempting to get you to abandon your downright awful, abhorrent view of the world. It's not a matter of differing, nuanced moral perspectives; the homophobic perspective is just... evil.

Those who are able and willing to patiently explain and illustrate why bigots are wrong, and thereby perhaps rescue from ignorance the small proportion of the bigot population who are simply wrongheaded and can be shown their error, are all well and good. But there needs to be a constant and firm reminder that there's a clear right and wrong here. Personally, I do not believe this battle is ultimately won when the socially enlightened convince the backwards and ignorant; it's won when through demographics the backwards and ignorant gradually go extinct. To that end, making it absolutely clear to everyone from day one that bigoted viewpoints are utterly unacceptable, wrong, and will result in you being shunned and looked down upon will limit the recruitment of new bigots and hasten the departure of the rapidly aging ones (who will hopefully be shamed into silence wherever possible).

Bigotry is learned. My guess is it is passed most commonly from parent to child. Something has to break that chain. Ultra-shame will be viewed as propaganda, and the people that have to hear the message simply stop listening, or if they can, vilify the messengers. Pointman is not going to start listening because now he is trying to defend his pride in his country as well. I don't think the extreme shame angle is going to be as effective as civil dialog. While that may have worked with different flavors of racism, I can't see it working with homophobia. That is because many homophobes view homosexuality as a life choice, not something you are born with. Until they understand that key point, homophobes will not equate their views with other types of prejudice. Ultra-shame is not going to get that through their skulls IMO.

Fighting intolerance with equal intolerance seems counter productive to me. Look how photon is going through the discussion. Much less hostile, and much less room for Pointman to maneuver. I would be interested in Pointman providing a real reply to his questions, instead of dodging.

[WilderPegasus]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

I'm not even sure what "momentum in the discussion" actually means. I don't want to associate with people who share this viewpoint, so it really doesn't matter to me if they think I'm an ####### for pointing out their massive shortcomings as human beings. I don't, personally, have the patience in this context to facilitate the re-education of people who have the potential openmindedness to be re-educated; if I hear this kind of bigotry in person I need to go into another room or lose my cool. So it's a moot point. I'm not emotionally equipped to take that tack here.

Wow! You have some serious emotional issues if you can't cope with such an insignificant action on someone else's part. You remind me of those extreme pro-lifers/pro-choicers in that they are so certain that they are correct about a complex issue that they demonize anyone who doesn't agree 100% with their viewpoint on a complex issue.

[Phaneufenstein]

Originally Posted by valo403

Before this law came out? Umm, my posts are specifically about this law and the people who support it. Try reading a little closer and paying attention to the context next time.

I'm talking about your posting history, not just in the regard to this issue.
I was curious to know why you thought that all Russians are such pieces of sh**. Is it just personal experience? Have you ever been to Russia?

[korzym12]

.,

[Phaneufenstein]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

I think you misunderstood him. To me it sounded like he already knew that Russia was a nation comprised largely of bigots as a result of being aware, prior to this thread existing, of attitudes towards gays and support for this law among the Russian population.

I was also aware of the numbers and the general popular sentiment in Russia, so I didn't need this thread to confirm my views. I'd also read quite a bit of forum-style commentary from Russian people on other boards talking about why they thought this law was just peachy and entirely reasonable so Pointman's obtuse nonsense wasn't entirely new (though he took it to the next level here).

Basically, there are some enlightened Russians who support the LGBT community. They are a minority, though. The vast majority of people in that country are apparently bigoted, crappy excuses for human beings.

Given his dogged support for the perspective that it's some form of moral imperialism to judge other societies whose standards of right and wrong differ from ours, it wouldn't surprise. Homophobes these days, being on the wrong side of every argument, attempt to wage proxy battles.

Poor choice of words and utter garbage.
For someone preaching tolerance you are quite ignorant

[Phaneufenstein]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Just cuz you are calling out posts. The answer to your question was clearly laid out in post 632. You even quoted the post in your reply.

Valo said that this isn't a new discussion. Media, reddit, etc have all been discussing this new law and Russia's human rights issues for a long time. I've had a few different discussions about this and other reports about the corruption in other areas connected to Russia hosting the Olympics. They are so far over budget that they have overshadowed every previous Olympics to date and spending 25% more than China.

The working conditions are apparently pretty horrible and the workers are not only being given very low wages but they are not even being paid ontime. They are using vast amounts of untrained migrant labour which poses its own potential problems with regard to the quality of their work.

Apparently there was even some controversy over picking Sochi as the host city as it is not actually a very good location for the winter olympics, which is absurd considering how much winter Russia gets. However, with the reputation everyone seems to share about Russian winters, I am sure it will be more than cold enough.

What's interesting, and is somewhat connected to my last post, is that Russia is also hosting the G20 summit this week. The Human Rights Watch put out an article about it. It will be interesting to hear if anything related to this topic comes out of the summit.

Post 632 does not answer my question.
Not sure what the purpose is of the rest of your post?
To defend Valo's position that every citizen in Russia is a piece of sh**?
Russian government is corrupt to the core, Russian people have the misfortune of carrying that burden, with little that can be done.

In regards to the location, most of the events will take place in the mountains that should have plenty of snow. Just like Whistler to Vancouver. One could argue that Vancouver was a crappier choice for winter olympics