Israel declares war on Hamas

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Dude all you do is put words in people's mouth. Literally 99% of your posts are accusations and lies.

You don't argue in good faith and make up lies much like Israeli government officials.

“Back to insults” while the first line of the post Sliver was responding to was calling him incoherent lol.

Nage never insults anyone.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

“Back to insults” while the first line of the post Sliver was responding to was calling him incoherent lol.

Nage never insults anyone.

Sliver has been insulting people that disagree with him. I don't believe calling his posts incoherent was wrong - I had trouble following his line of thought because it was often baseless, it was unclear and inconsistent. I ask for quotes, as others have, for what he accused them of. Several users many don't bother with, others seem to be coming out of nowhere, like Sliver.

You have called me horrible things, yet continue posting as if I am the name caller. You seem to be accusing me of everything you are guilty of. How intolerant of you.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I have been very clear about the settlers for years here, not sure why you are saying I ignored something. If there is legit discussion, I am happy to answer. I know several posters like to pretend otherwise, but I am pretty good. Unless I miss the question entirely.

The settlers don't exist anywhere near Hamas, unless Hamas is also in the West Bank. In fact, Israel forced out every jew from Gaza 20 years ago, that is when Hamas prospered in Gaza. So it really isn't fair to say that because there are settlers, Hamas can recruit. Israel withdrew what would basically be settlers in Gaza, and extremism replaced them.

Regarding settlers adjacent to the West Bank, yes they are controversial. But Israel considers this Israeli land. You would have to walk through whose land you think it is, which is a rather academic process. It isn't just the land is Palestinian, there are numerous factors associated with it. It could all go away if Palestinians make peace with Israel, there would be a land swap as per the peace plan.

Multiple posts in this thread made some major accusations about settlers - not all have been in some crazy violence, but some certainly have. In general, settlers will say Palestinians did X, so we did Y, and visa versa. I don't approve of any of that. The two sides need to find common ground and create steps to get there. If Israelis had guarantees to safety, I am fairly confident that they would be happy with an outcome. That isn't quite the same on the Palestinian side, we can I am sure agree there are major players on the Palestinian side whose goal is not peace. Not everyone mind you, but a significant boulder to move.

I think there are arguments to be made for Hamas using the Settlers as recruiting ammo - but I don't even want to get into that.

You gave me a level headed response sharing your opinion, and treated my words at face value.

That's a win, and more of that would make this thread more productive and less frustrating. So I'm just going to thank your post and leave things there.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Sliver has been insulting people that disagree with him. I don't believe calling his posts incoherent was wrong - I had trouble following his line of thought because it was often baseless, it was unclear and inconsistent. I ask for quotes, as others have, for what he accused them of. Several users many don't bother with, others seem to be coming out of nowhere, like Sliver.

You have called me horrible things, yet continue posting as if I am the name caller. You seem to be accusing me of everything you are guilty of. How intolerant of you.

Incoherent? Hahah, okay, I'll dumb it down for you.

There are two groups of people: we'll call them Group A and Group B.

On October 7, 2023, Group A attacked Group B in a heinous and violent way, killing many innocent people, raping others and kidnapping approximately 250.

Group B had every right to respond to rescue their kidnapped citizens and hold to account/bring to justice those responsible from Group A.

* * Still with me, big guy? * *

Instead of focussing on finding those responsible, Group B has been on a six-month long murderous rampage indiscriminately killing tens of thousands of innocent members of Group A with a response that isn't focussed on any goal other than genocide. Their goal doesn't appear to be hostage rescue (they've killed hostages) and justice is absolutely off the table (they've murdered over 40,000 people and destroyed the infrastructure of an entire region).

A better strategy would have been to find the specific individuals responsible for the initial attack. They had my full support to do so. Instead, Group B has behaved in a terrifying way toward innocent people in Group A such that Group B's response has been orders of magnitude worse than Group A's original - and awful - action.

[Fuzz]

Sliver, don't be such an anti-B-itte.

[Fl4me5]

When did the number go to 40,000? Hamas must be desperate to get some more empathy from their useful idiots.

https://x.com/cogatonline/status/1787178044257354206

How quickly before you all dismiss this as Hasbara? While simultaneously lapping up all the unfounded claims from the trustworthy UN/UNWRA.

Ultimately, all this proves is that anything can be made up in war, but there is a clear trend in this community of believing one sides claims, while disregarding the others entirely. Can anyone honestly say they have not been affected by some form of propaganda in this war, regardless of which side you support?

The ONLY way to move forward in this conflict is to begin conversation about how we can work towards peace and coexistence. Repeating the Hamas buzz words and focusing primarily on labelling Israel as the villain in this is only widening the gap. It's disappointing to see all these virtue signaling cowards who think they are fighting the good fight, but in reality are causing more divide and hatred.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

When did the number go to 40,000? Hamas must be desperate to get some more empathy from their useful idiots.

https://x.com/cogatonline/status/1787178044257354206

How quickly before you all dismiss this as Hasbara? While simultaneously lapping up all the unfounded claims from the trustworthy UN/UNWRA.

Ultimately, all this proves is that anything can be made up in war, but there is a clear trend in this community of believing one sides claims, while disregarding the others entirely. Can anyone honestly say they have not been affected by some form of propaganda in this war, regardless of which side you support?

The ONLY way to move forward in this conflict is to begin conversation about how we can work towards peace and coexistence. Repeating the Hamas buzz words and focusing primarily on labelling Israel as the villain in this is only widening the gap. It's disappointing to see all these virtue signaling cowards who think they are fighting the good fight, but in reality are causing more divide and hatred.

The best way to begin a conversation about working toward peace and coexistence is to call “the other side” virtue signalling cowards and useful idiots.

Very good effort. Glad you’re a part of it.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

When did the number go to 40,000? Hamas must be desperate to get some more empathy from their useful idiots.

https://x.com/cogatonline/status/1787178044257354206

How quickly before you all dismiss this as Hasbara? While simultaneously lapping up all the unfounded claims from the trustworthy UN/UNWRA.

Ultimately, all this proves is that anything can be made up in war, but there is a clear trend in this community of believing one sides claims, while disregarding the others entirely. Can anyone honestly say they have not been affected by some form of propaganda in this war, regardless of which side you support?

The ONLY way to move forward in this conflict is to begin conversation about how we can work towards peace and coexistence. Repeating the Hamas buzz words and focusing primarily on labelling Israel as the villain in this is only widening the gap. It's disappointing to see all these virtue signaling cowards who think they are fighting the good fight, but in reality are causing more divide and hatred.

Hahaha so close to getting it.

Yeah, that's my point. Israel needs to stop murdering Palestinians. Let's start there. Israel holds all the cards right now. They could cease firing in the next five minutes and the peace process would begin and conversations would start. Everything you just said you want hinges on Israel to stop killing people. So long as Israel's military is on the offensive in Gaza peace cannot happen.

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Hahaha so close to getting it.

Yeah, that's my point. Israel needs to stop murdering Palestinians. Let's start there. Israel holds all the cards right now. They could cease firing in the next five minutes and the peace process would begin and conversations would start. Everything you just said you want hinges on Israel to stop killing people. So long as Israel's military is on the offensive in Gaza peace cannot happen.

Convenient neglecting the terrorist organization they are fighting. Why don’t you call for Hamas to lay down weapons in the same sentence?

This is it exactly what I’m saying. It’s always all on Israel and nobody else’s responsibility.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

Convenient neglecting the terrorist organization they are fighting. Why don’t you call for Hamas to lay down weapons in the same sentence?

This is it exactly what I’m saying. It’s always all on Israel and nobody else’s responsibility.

Are you joking around with me? Wipe Hamas off the face of the earth. They need to be punished and those responsible for October 7 should be killed. I've said it multiple times on this very page.

It just needs to be done in a way that doesn't kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians and in a way devastating to infrastructure (as that just makes the eventual rebuild more difficult and painful).

I assume you were upset when Hamas attacked civilians in Israel on October 7? Okay...now, if you are able...imagine if you were a Palestinian: wouldn't you be upset when Israel kills your civilians?

It's just so basic. I think Hamas is terrible for what they did to Israel. I think Israel is terrible for what they're doing to Palestinians.

Israel was the victim of Hamas on October 7.

Palestinians have been the victims of Israel from October 8 - present.

Hamas = bad.

Israeli Government and IDF = bad.

Palestinians Civilians = victims of Israel for the actions of Hamas

[Fuzz]

Because Hamas is, as has been pointed out, entirely off their rocker. Pointing a gun at their head and telling them to stop doesn't make them stop, it makes them think they win.

I think that's what people miss. One side is seen as somewhat rational and is purposefully allowing innocents to be killed and starve. The other doesn't really follow rational thought. So ya, we are coming down hard on the side that knows better(or really should, given their history), and their is some sliver of hope they might come back to sanity. Because you will never win this one with force. And no, I don't know how you deal with it, but I do KNOW killing, maiming, and starving innocent children isn't going to lead to the win you think it is.

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Are you joking around with me? Wipe Hamas off the face of the earth. They need to be punished and those responsible for October 7 should be killed. I've said it multiple times on this very page.

It just needs to be done in a way that doesn't kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians and in a way devastating to infrastructure (as that just makes the eventual rebuild more difficult and painful).

I assume you were upset when Hamas attacked civilians in Israel on October 7? Okay...now, if you are able...imagine if you were a Palestinian: wouldn't you be upset when Israel kills your civilians?

It's just so basic. I think Hamas is terrible for what they did to Israel. I think Israel is terrible for what they're doing to Palestinians.

Israel was the victim of Hamas on October 7.

Palestinians have been the victims of Israel from October 8 - present.

Hamas = bad.

Israeli Government and IDF = bad.

Palestinians Civilians = victims of Israel for the actions of Hamas

This is a respectful post. I agree with all of this. My question is how does a military eradicate Hamas in a way that would please you? Sending commandos into every building is not a realistic military solution. It has never been done that way in world history.

Also, calling Israel “murderers” is extremely insensitive and outright hateful. They don’t want to be doing that and any suggestion that they do is completely insane. Those words do not help us move forward.

So without a massive double standard held against the IDF - what is the right course of action?

I haven’t seen one realistic example proposed by anyone in any stream of media since Oct 7.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

This is a respectful post. I agree with all of this. My question is how does a military eradicate Hamas in a way that would please you? Sending commandos into every building is not a realistic military solution. It has never been done that way in world history.

Also, calling Israel “murderers” is extremely insensitive and outright hateful. They don’t want to be doing that and any suggestion that they do is completely insane. Those words do not help us move forward.

So without a massive double standard held against the IDF - what is the right course of action?

I haven’t seen one realistic example proposed by anyone in any stream of media since Oct 7.

I have already answered this. Here's my answer from November 2023 and I had posted it a few posts up yesterday when Nage Waza was pretending people hadn't addressed this multiple times already.

Originally Posted by Sliver

Nobody has said that. Nobody expects them to turn the other cheek. That's preposterous.

We expect them to hold those who planned, funded and perpetrated the attack to account.

That requires them going into any country on planet earth to find and kill any Hamas leadership that is responsible wherever they may be hiding. You need diplomacy and spies to make that happen. Get on it.

They also have the unenviable job of rooting out Hamas leadership within Gaza. That is difficult, dangerous, time consuming and doesn't have the whizz-bang factor that dropping bombs here there and everywhere has. It would require patience and the help/support of Palestinians.

A good way to have garnered support from Palestinians would have been to treat them like equal humans prior to October 7. Too late now for that, and as evidenced by the thoughtless takes in this thread, all of this madness started on October 7 and you aren't allowed to point out prior history or Israeli atrocities directed at Gazans. I'll let that part go because the cheerleaders for the Israeli army can't seem to hold these two thoughts in their heads simultaneously: the October 7 attack was evil, horrible and worthy of severe punishment/retribution AND Israel's response is going to make a dangerous situation worse and the slaughter of innocent civilians is unacceptable. Kinda weird how they're all up in arms (rightfully) at Hamas slaughtering their people, but can justify Israel slaughtering 10x (and counting) more Palestinians, but again, not here to argue that since I'm at the point where I have to accept that supporters of this Israeli government are not mentally equipped to grasp that.

In short, you'd have to be a moron to believe Israel doesn't have the right to respond. I believe you also have to be a moron to think anything and everything Israel does is permissible and acceptable as a response. There are responses that would be ethical, proportionate, punitive and substantive enough to deter future attacks; however, Israel's current approach is counter to all of those points. Their murderous and blood-thirsty response is unethical, disproportionate and will only worsen relations (and safety) in the area.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

This is a respectful post. I agree with all of this. My question is how does a military eradicate Hamas in a way that would please you? Sending commandos into every building is not a realistic military solution. It has never been done that way in world history.

Also, calling Israel “murderers” is extremely insensitive and outright hateful. They don’t want to be doing that and any suggestion that they do is completely insane. Those words do not help us move forward.

So without a massive double standard held against the IDF - what is the right course of action?

I haven’t seen one realistic example proposed by anyone in any stream of media since Oct 7.

“Insane”? The best excuse you can possibly give here is that, instead of setting out to kill civilians, they purposely took actions that would kill a high number of civilians for little to no military gain and didn’t care.

When do we get to call out the “virtue signalling cowards” on the Israeli government side? Because I’m not sure justifying the killing of tens of thousands of civilians without any actual evidence of military “success” is anything but that, right? It’s easy to shrug your shoulders at the mountains of dead children because they’re Palestinian, I guess.

[Sliver]

It's not the murdering that's bad, ya see...it's the hate you're showing by calling the killers "murderers" that's the real problem here.

[PepsiFree]

And, further to Sliver’s point, you can get to a point in a conflict (in this case, before one even begins) where there’s no good path to choose. That doesn’t mean the path they do choose should go without criticism.

If Israel chose to do nothing, agree to the hostage deal, and let the terrorist attack go, anti-Palestinians groups would be apoplectic. There would be posters here, the same shrugging their shoulders at the thousands of dead, that would be frothing at the mouth because the deaths of hundreds went unanswered. Would that have been the wrong response?

[Fl4me5]

Wow, now I’m getting labelled as justifying murders for calling out language.

Impossible to have a conversation with any of you. Enjoy your circle jerk.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

Wow, now I’m getting labelled as justifying murders for calling out language.

Impossible to have a conversation with any of you. Enjoy your circle jerk.

Don't melt, it's above zero out there.

[Fl4me5]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Don't melt, it's above zero out there.

Don’t fall off your horse, it’s a long way down.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fl4me5

Don’t fall off your horse, it’s a long way down.

lol, classic me looking down my nose on government-sponsored killings of civilians.